# On the Topic of Transgenders **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 5, 2016, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980 "2016-05-05T12:10:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/261 "2016-05-07T06:30:29Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > if men and women have to report their gender to government, have it on their licenses, and SJWs are so insistent on this bathroom thing, maybe TM and TF should be alongside M and F as official gender categories, and be on their licenses and other official documents. Then you could more easily enforce reasonable bathroom laws but compromise. I am a pragmatic person. > > But then, if TM and TF became official categories, goodbye “gender fluidity,” or being male one day, non-conforming the next day, female the next, etc. Well, I don’t know of anyone who arguing for gender fluidity, not having it as an option doesn’t seem too much of a loss. Maybe we’ll both be overtaken by future developments, but, at this moment, shrug. On the other hand, I don’t see what is gained by having TF and TM as driver license options. Do I have to report that my hair used to be dark, but I’ve bleached it? Do I have to report that I used to have to wear glasses, but have had Lasik? Do I have to note that I used to have tattoos, but had them removed? What does the government care about what I used to be? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/262 "2016-05-07T07:46:17Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Would you still imply he was a racist if he didn’t find attraction to fat or skinny people and expressed that lack of attraction? There is a huge difference between lack of attraction and revulsion. I am not attracted to the immense majority of people, but I don’t go “ewww” at the thought of all those billions I don’t find attractive, nor do I ask for them to be refused basic human rights. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/263 "2016-05-07T08:40:55Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Evolution has been proved with extensive visible and examinable physical evidence. Not the case with trans-ism. > [@Arcite](#): > > I haven’t seen any “science” “proving” that men are actually women, nor women men. Same basic question as, well, _every_ time. Do either of you two recognize that gender identity is a thing that exists, and is distinct from biological sex? Because that’s really the starting point. In order to understand trans issues, you have to understand that gender identity exists, and not just pretend it doesn’t. And yes, my choice of wording is correct. You would be _pretending_ it doesn’t exist, because the scientific basis for gender identity is decades old and encompasses [thousands of papers](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=%22gender+identity%22). Here’s just a small smattering: [http://www.eje-online.org/content/155/suppl\_1/S107.short](http://www.eje-online.org/content/155/suppl_1/S107.short) > **[15106\_285\_swaab.pdf](https://pure.knaw.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/515234/15106_285_swaab.pdf)** > **[Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1053811909003176)** > > Gender identity—one's sense of being a man or a woman—is a fundamental perception experienced by all individuals that extends beyond biological sex. Y… > **[Sexual differentiation of the brain and behavior](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1521690X07000334)** > > During the intrauterine period the human brain develops in the male direction via direct action of a boy's testosterone, and in the female direction t… [http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM197905313002201](http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM197905313002201) And, in case you didn’t bother to read any of them, that last one is from _1979_. Yeah. This is not a new thing. If you reject the existence of gender identity as a distinct facet of human psychology, you are literally _35 years_ behind the research, and there’s, quite frankly, no reason to take you or your opinion seriously on the subject. There just isn’t. You can appeal to “common senwse” or “natural law” all you want, but all you’re doing is unreasonably oversimplifying an issue far beyond reason in order to uphold your own prejudices. So, can we accept that Gender Identity is a thing and continue, or would you prefer to bury your heads in the sand and mark yourselves as utterly unworthy of continued debate on this topic? > [@inscrutable](#): > > Disagree. > > From an article on this subject: > > The statement – written by Dr. Michelle A. Cretella, president of the American College of Pediatricians, The American College of Pediatricians is a hate group and basically the pediatric equivalent of Answers in Genesis when it comes to actual facts. Their stated positions almost invariably go against the positions of American Association of Pediatrics, an organization with a membership quite a few orders of magnitude larger, and also against the scientific consensus. They exist solely to push an anti-LGBTQ opinion. Case in point: > [@](#): > > The first point is, “Human sexuality is an objective biological binary trait: ‘XY’ and ‘XX’ are genetic markers of health – not genetic markers of a disorder,” with the purpose of male and female being “the reproduction and flourishing of our species.” It notes “exceedingly rare exceptions of sexual differentiation,” which are disorders but do not represent a “third sex.” They don’t get that Gender Identity exists and is distinct from sex. > [@](#): > > Secondly, “No one is born with a gender. Everyone is born with a biological sex. Gender (an awareness and sense of oneself as male or female) is a sociological and psychological concept; not an objective biological one.” They explicitly _deny_ the existing (and indeed overwhelming) evidence of gender identity. This is not a legitimate scientific organization, to put it bluntly. This is a cross between an advocacy group and a hate group, belonging in the same category as the American Family Association and One Million Moms. > [@Arcite](#): > > I don’t think women should be allowed to vote and I think homosexuality belongs in the closet, so… 2 out of 3 ain’t bad. _Wow_. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/264 "2016-05-07T09:06:42Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > On the other hand, I don’t see what is gained by having TF and TM as driver license options. Do I have to report that my hair used to be dark, but I’ve bleached it? Do I have to report that I used to have to wear glasses, but have had Lasik? Do I have to note that I used to have tattoos, but had them removed? What does the government care about what I used to be? because then we can both allow transgenders to use the bathroom of their “gender identity” but keep people out who don’t belong in there. There is a lot of fear you uber-progressives aren’t just gonna shame away about people who don’t belong in a certain bathroom going into one. Also, to prevent crime, just as one’s driver license and SS card say male/female, they do to establishment identity. Birth certificate also says race and those things too. Why not for transvestites if they’re truly legitimate? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/265 "2016-05-07T09:13:58Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Also, to prevent crime, just as one’s driver license and SS card say male/female, they do to establishment identity. Birth certificate also says race and those things too. Why not for transvestites if they’re truly legitimate? So everyone who uses a public restroom must show their ID? Or are you going to profile only those who don’t look like their birth gender? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/266 "2016-05-07T09:17:38Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > because then we can both allow transgenders to use the bathroom of their “gender identity” but keep people out who don’t belong in there. There is a lot of fear you uber-progressives aren’t just gonna shame away about people who don’t belong in a certain bathroom going into one. You spend a _lot_ of time thinking about public bathrooms, don’t you. You know who doesn’t spend a lot of time thinking about public bathrooms? [Sexual abuse survivors](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sexual-assault-bathroom-law_us_57190d25e4b0d912d5fdda6b), who are decrying these laws as unnecessary and counterproductive. > [@](#): > > Also, to prevent crime, just as one’s driver license and SS card say male/female, they do to establishment identity. Birth certificate also says race and those things too. Why not for transvestites if they’re truly legitimate? Are you deliberately confusing “transvestite” with “transgendered” as some sort of half-assed attempt at a troll, or do you still genuinely not understand the distinction after it’s been explained to you a dozen times in this thread? N.B: neither answer will reflect well on you. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/267 "2016-05-07T10:12:26Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > But then, if TM and TF became official categories, goodbye “gender fluidity,” or being male one day, non-conforming the next day, female the next, etc. This is a mischaracterization of the term gender fluidity that improperly suggests that there is some large number of people who are going to go around entering different public restrooms every day. It has nothing to do with allowing the state to determine which restroom a person must use or the state forbidding a community from offering civil right protections for people whom the legislature irrationally fears. Once more, you are trying to raise a non-issue into a case for extreme reactions, (with accompanying denial of legal protection). And once more without providing any scientific evidence to identify or support your concerns. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/268 "2016-05-07T10:20:34Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > because then we can both allow transgenders to use the bathroom of their “gender identity” but keep people out who don’t belong in there. There is a lot of fear you uber-progressives aren’t just gonna shame away about people who don’t belong in a certain bathroom going into one. Also, to prevent crime, just as one’s driver license and SS card say male/female, they do to establishment identity. Birth certificate also says race and those things too. Why not for transvestites if they’re truly legitimate? What crimes do you think you are preventing? A person who wanted to commit a sex crime under the guise of one gender or another is not going to be prevented by having a law that forbids a community from offering legal protections to people with actual biological and psychological situations. Are you planning to place police at the doors of every restroom, demanding to see birth certificates of everyone who enters? How is this “protection” supposed to work? You are creating a terrible “solution” to a non-existent problem. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/269 "2016-05-07T10:26:57Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Why not for transvestites if they’re truly legitimate? More ignorance displayed. A transvestite is one who chooses on specific occasions to cross dress. On other occasions such a person would dress just the way you would like to compel them to dress. You persistently use the word transvestite in these discussions when that is not the word that identifies the subject under discussion. It would appear, since you have been corrected on the subject, that you choose to deliberately use a word with a different meaning in order to deny the reality of gender identity and that is not a legitimate approach to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/270 "2016-05-07T10:27:28Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > I agree with DerekMichaels00. It’s ridiculous that our society seriously and with a straight face treats a man who feels like he’s “really a woman” as an actual woman, or vice versa, and not only that, treats people who are _not_ on board with this as the ones who are beyond the pale and shunned from polite society. It’s like being able to see the Matrix, with everyone else around you living in some kind of bizarre alternate reality. Funny you should use a movie directed by two transgender women as your metaphor for why you don’t like transgenderism. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/271 "2016-05-07T11:09:57Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > because then we can both allow transgenders to use the bathroom of their “gender identity” but keep people out who don’t belong in there. There is a lot of fear you uber-progressives aren’t just gonna shame away about people who don’t belong in a certain bathroom going into one. But how does your approach help? Imagine a tall individual who undergoes penis construction surgery and gets pumped full of male hormones and sprouts a beard and otherwise transitions from a feminine appearance to a masculine one. Imagine I see this person following my daughter into the bathroom. Imagine I say, _what the hell do you think you’re doing?_ And imagine the response – growled at me in a deeper voice than I’ve got – is, _hey, pal, I’d rather use the men’s room; but the law favored by **DerekMichaels00** means I have to use the one that matches my birth certificate. I’d rather whip out my penis at a urinal instead; but while that used to be legal, now it’s a crime._ Who does that law help? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/272 "2016-05-07T12:03:20Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > The rest of us shouldn’t be forced to live our lives as though we buy into their delusions. Heck, if that’s your issue, transgender persons are way down on the list of people you should be concerned about. In comparison, Evangelical Christians have massively more influence over your life by virtue of their influence over the various western governments. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/273 "2016-05-07T12:38:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **DerekMichaels00** : > > the fact that you’d liken me, a born male with a Y-chromosome and a penis,… How do you know? Not the penis, I mean: That’s pretty obvious. But I’ve certainly never had a chromosome test, and I doubt you have, either. I can guess that there’s a very high probability that I have a Y chromosome, but it’s possible that, through some quirk of biology, I don’t. See, biology is complicated and messy that way: Even though certain traits, like having a penis, having a Y chromosome, having elevated levels of testosterone and androgen, and growing facial hair are all correlated pretty strongly, they’re not correlated perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/274 "2016-05-07T12:48:59Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How do you know? Not the penis, I mean: That’s pretty obvious. But I’ve certainly never had a chromosome test, and I doubt you have, either. I can guess that there’s a very high probability that I have a Y chromosome, but it’s possible that, through some quirk of biology, I don’t. See, biology is complicated and messy that way: Even though certain traits, like having a penis, having a Y chromosome, having elevated levels of testosterone and androgen, and growing facial hair are all correlated pretty strongly, they’re not correlated perfectly. That’s a pretty interesting question. **Derek** and **Arcite** , there’s a tiny chance–let’s call it one in a million–that you lack a Y chromosome. Let’s say you get a genetic test and discover that you’re that one in a million. At that point, would you continue “pretending” to be a man, or would you adopt a feminine name, start wearing dresses, shave your legs, and use the lady’s room? Arcite, you disapprove of homosexuality; would you start dating men? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/275 "2016-05-07T12:52:40Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s a pretty interesting question. **Derek** and **Arcite** , there’s a tiny chance–let’s call it one in a million–that you lack a Y chromosome. Let’s say you get a genetic test and discover that you’re that one in a million. At that point, would you continue “pretending” to be a man, or would you adopt a feminine name, start wearing dresses, shave your legs, and use the lady’s room? Arcite, you disapprove of homosexuality; would you start dating men? It would be moot - they’d instantly die of irony poisoning. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/276 "2016-05-07T14:33:59Z")
You know, I’m tired of the Reports from both sides of this. It appears there’s little actual debate. Off to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/277 "2016-05-07T14:54:10Z")
Hey, now that we’re in the Pit, can I ask any of you crybaby bastards who reported a post, on either side, to specify which ones and why? Just curious. And the OP is a whiner who manifests one of the forms of the Modern American Victim. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/278 "2016-05-07T14:55:22Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/279 "2016-05-07T15:01:10Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > You know, I’m tired of the Reports from both sides of this. It appears there’s little actual debate. > > Off to the Pit. Glad to see it. Much better than handing out Warnings and closing the thread. When someone comes in to almost-but-not-quite troll on a topic, throw it to the Pit, rather than punishing people for perfectly understandable if technically rule-breaking reactions. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/280 "2016-05-07T15:05:30Z")
Oh goodie. Derek, you’re a horrible fucking bigot and the world would be better off if someone glued your mouth shut. Arcite, the 19th century called, it wants its village idiot back. The 22nd century called, it wants its time machine back. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980.md?page=15)