# On the Topic of Transgenders **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 5, 2016, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980 "2016-05-05T12:10:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/361 "2016-05-08T05:13:44Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Until then, it just seems to be almost like a last frontier for those who can’t stand that the fight for LGB rights has largely been won and thus is mostly over. This is possibly the only correct thing you’ve said in this entire thread, although it was apparently by accident as you don’t seem to realize what you’re admitting to here. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/362 "2016-05-08T05:33:35Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I am a male, born a male, and will continue living and die a male, as the Lord intended. Nobody’s saying you shouldn’t. You happen to be one of the lucky majority who were born with chromosomes, anatomy, and brain structure all corresponding to typical and socially validated characteristics for one clearly identified gender. So you didn’t have any conflicts or contradictions or social repression to work through in order to form a gender identity you feel confident in or comfortable with. Congratufuckinglations. But that doesn’t give you any right to look down on people whom the Lord (or who/whatever) evidently did **not** intend to have such an easy path to gender identification, because he/they/it gave those people an assortment of characteristics that **didn’t** all match the same gender. [QUOTE=DerekMichaels00] Like I said; if people who mention the difference in transgenders’ brains vs. non-trans brains can show that the incidence of this brain difference is on the order of how many phenotypical men have Y-chromosomes, meaning its a constant (except for extreme \<.1% outliers), I’ll change my stance. [/quote] As we keep telling you and you keep ignoring, these differences **have been** shown in all instances where the brain structures of transgender people have been examined. As in [this 2011 _New Scientist_ article](https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/): > [@](#): > > Differences in the brain’s white matter that clash with a person’s genetic sex may hold the key to identifying transsexual people before puberty. […] > > In a study due to be published next month, the team ran MRI scans on the brains of 18 female-to-male transsexual people who’d had no treatment and compared them with those of 24 males and 19 females. > > They found significant differences between male and female brains in four regions of white matter – and the female-to-male transsexual people had white matter in these regions that resembled a male brain […] > > In a separate study, the team used the same technique to compare white matter in 18 male-to-female transsexual people with that in 19 males and 19 females. Surprisingly, in each transsexual person’s brain the structure of the white matter in the four regions was halfway between that of the males and females […]. “Their brains are not completely masculinised and not completely feminised, but they still feel female,” says [research team leader Antonio] Guillamon. [Another article from 2014](http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/09/12/cercor.bhu194.full): > [@](#): > > This divergence between gender identity and biological sex has been proposed to emerge from the temporal difference between sexual differentiation of the genitals and the brain […]. Specifically, the biological effect or lack of testosterone during 6–12 weeks of pregnancy leads to the formation of male or female sexual organs, respectively. In contrast, sexual differentiation of the brain occurs in the second half of pregnancy by organizing effects of sexual hormones. Hence, these developmental processes are independent and chronologically separated, so that masculinization of the genitals may not necessarily reflect that of the brain. > > Accordingly, various studies report closer resemblance between transgender people and control subjects with the same gender identity than to those sharing their biological sex. […] Although transsexual people exhibit similar hormonal levels in adulthood as control subjects of the same biological sex, these studies indicate a transition of specific characteristics of their brains to the actual gender identity (i.e., feminization or masculinization). > > In addition to the reported regional features, it is important to take into account characteristics of the human brain on a network level. […] To address this issue, we investigated structural connectivity networks of female-to-male and male-to-female transsexuals as compared with healthy subjects. […] > > Investigating the brain on a network level adds important information to local structural and functional alterations in transsexual patients. In this context, previous results and interpretations of regional differences suggest a transition from the biological sex to the actual gender identity. Although feminization and masculinization indeed occurs, for example for neuronal cell number […] and activation […] as well as gray matter volume […] and cortical thickness […], the identification of unique features of transsexual patients has been largely neglected in previous work. Researchers are still a long long way from understanding **everything** about transgender, but it is well established that brain structure is different in transgender people, and a plausible biological mechanism is proposed to explain that phenomenon. I.e., **a fetus’s genitals and brain develop sexual characteristics at different times and via different processes. So they don’t always end up conforming to the same matching gender patterns that we see in the majority of people.** Just as the development of gender identity and sexual orientation occur through different biological processes. For the majority of people that results in a standard combination of being one gender and being sexually attracted to the other gender, while for a minority that combination ends up being instead a non-standard “mismatch”. This is science, FFS. You claim you don’t have a problem with accepting science on climate change, even though many of the details of that research are still poorly understood as well. So why on earth are you being so anti-science on the subject of transgender? [QUOTE=DerekMichaels00] Until then, it just seems to be almost like a last frontier for those who can’t stand that the fight for LGB rights has largely been won and thus is mostly over. [/QUOTE] Stop a moment and think about how stupid that sounds. Do you seriously believe that transgender people are deliberately putting themselves at terrible risk of being discriminated against and/or harassed or beaten or killed by bigots just to give liberals a cause _du jour_? Or do you seriously believe that the vast majority of straight cisgender liberals are genuinely opposed to homosexuals being discriminated against and/or harassed or beaten or killed by bigots, but don’t actually care if the same thing happens to transgender people? How you figure? Furthermore—and I really can’t stress this enough— **transgender issues would not even be a thing if people like you weren’t constantly throwing all these big screaming tantrums about them**. If y’all would just sack up and say _“I’m not interested in dating a transgender person, but other than that, their gender identity is none of my business”_, then **the vast majority of you would never be directly and significantly affected by any situations involving transgender people whatsoever**. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/363 "2016-05-08T05:44:40Z")
I feel like a lot of the issues with the brain/genitals distinction come from an odd marriage of monist/materialist and dualist distinctions born into our culture. On one hand, we’re conditioned to accept empirical evidence, which all takes place in the material world. We think of it as “real”. Still, a lot of people have some conception of “soul” or “spirit” or “self” which is significantly more abstract. Even in atheists, the mind often feels less “real” because it’s an abstract, emergent quality of a system rather than a specific entity you can point to. So a lot of people have a weird cognitive dissonance where draw a distinction between the mind and body as two separate entities, but then go and act like the mind is “less real”. A hardcore dualist like Descartes may even argue that, in fact, gender identity is far more real than a body. Or at least more verifiable to us as individuals, after all, everything else may just be an illusion. A hardcore materialist would find it to be an interesting puzzle, but both are ultimately just different ways in which matter can align itself into a “person”. Of course, real personal views of the universe contain inherent contradictions, are complex, and aren’t required to fit into some neat spiritualist/materialist/dualist box. It’s just interesting to me that the arguments against mental gender seem to treat the mind as a real, separate entity, but then simultaneously discard that entity as “not real.” (This is by no means unique to gender identity. This viewpoint is what plagues mental health perceptions in general). ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/364 "2016-05-08T06:20:59Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I’m just a dissenter of what much of the internet has become on this issue. I am a male, born a male, and will continue living and die a male, as the Lord intended. > > Like I said; if people who mention the difference in transgenders’ brains vs. non-trans brains can show that the incidence of this brain difference is on the order of how many phenotypical men have Y-chromosomes, meaning its a constant (except for extreme \<.1% outliers), I’ll change my stance. Until then, it just seems to be almost like a last frontier for those who can’t stand that the fight for LGB rights has largely been won and thus is mostly over. What a disgusting, sick pig. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/365 "2016-05-08T10:56:21Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Not to mention sabotaging your mojo. Speaking as a short woman who’s always been attracted to shorter/short men, the association of that appeal with the thought of **DerekMichaels00** is suddenly making nunneries look really good. I’m a regular size girl who’s attracted to short guys. Derek doesn’t make nunneries looked good, he just makes non-bigot short guys more attractive. And non-bigot tall guys attractive. Basically makes all non-bigot men more attractive. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > I think most women would choose to take care of themselves than to stoop to dating **Derek**. That will be Derek’s next great cause - outlawing dildos because he doesn’t want the competition. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I’m just a dissenter of what much of the internet has become on this issue. I am a male, born a male, and will continue living and die a male, as the Lord intended. And no one is telling you to do otherwise. Internet rumors of waking up in a hotel bathtub of ice post-surgery are just that, rumors. No one is going to surgify you unless you specifically request it. > [@](#): > > Like I said; if people who mention the difference in transgenders’ brains vs. non-trans brains can show that the incidence of this brain difference is on the order of how many phenotypical men have Y-chromosomes, meaning its a constant (except for extreme \<.1% outliers), I’ll change my stance. You’ve been given the evidence, you just don’t want to accept it. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/366 "2016-05-08T11:18:26Z")
Yep, just another nice guy not getting the sex he deserves from the hot, thin cis-chicks (papers provided on demand). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/367 "2016-05-08T11:51:12Z")
You mean men are NOT simply entitled to all the thin, hot, cis-pussy their little wee dicks can handle? You mean they actually have to treat the [del]pussy transport[/del] women as human beings to get laid? You mean they have to take responsibility for any spawn resulting from fucking? Wow, some men are going to be really disappointed with life. Derek, I’m not sure you got this memo here… ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/368 "2016-05-08T12:06:56Z")
Being transgender is not a character flaw. Being an asshole is. Sent from my LG-V410 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/369 "2016-05-08T12:26:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Considering what you’ve said about trans people, they seem to be based entirely on hatred and disgust, possibly tinged with some unspoken secret attraction. I try to be careful about these sorts of arguments, now. But I think this one may have merit. I’ve actually read studies that say that the penis actually stimulates sexual arousal in straight males. And they are straight–they did not show a preference for actually having sex with men. It makes sense to me, and why so many don’t seem to mind penises in porn the way I do. But I also have some fetishes that might make me atypical. Or maybe I’m running into the same issue, but it also triggers the part of my brain that says “male” and thus decreases arousal. ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/370 "2016-05-08T13:38:38Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I will accept transgenders if: > > 1. They and the pro-trans people accept that trans people do not belong competing in the sport of their transitioned-to gender > 2. That hetero cis men can find trans people repulsive without being called a bigot, and _can say so in public_ > 3. That trans people don’t start trying to pass themselves off as “cis,” or regular people and deceive them into a relationship. I never wanna go to a bar and find out that the girl I’m about to lay down game to isn’t a girl. That’s disgusting. > 4. That given their small proportion of the population, their representation in media reflect that. What’s next: Playboy putting one of them on, to show “solidarity with equality?” Ew, no, never. Let’s try this again. If those conditions are not met (because they are utterly absurd and you are a raging transphobe without a shred of decency or empathy), what will happen? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/371 "2016-05-08T15:45:26Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > OK. Since over 99% of phenotypical men have a Y-Chromosome, can you and other trans-ism proponents _show me_ that 99%+ of transgenders have _the same_ brain deviation from “cis” gender people? She already has. > [@](#): > > I already said that one of my problems with transgenders being mainstreamed is that short men, like me, already start low on the social totem pole and get stuck with fat girls and are expected to lower than standards to them in the likely event they can’t get with hot thin ones because fat girls are more desperate than hot ones. Dude, my classmate Felix is below 150cm and his wife is 168cm. Not particularly thin, not particularly fat, brunette, nice curves. Their eldest gets his looks from Daddy: golden hair, sky blue eyes, wide shoulders and nope, won’t ever play in the NBA. But then, nobody has ever accused him of having a size complex. He’s short, his mind is not. I would hereby like to propose that the best way for you to be sure you don’t accidentally impregnate any chicks (fat, trans or otherwise) is to keep your dick in your pants. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/372 "2016-05-08T15:49:42Z")
Wait a second … **Derek** would lay with a girl he met at a bar ??? … disgusting … he deserves to find a ding-a-ling where there ought not to be one. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/373 "2016-05-08T15:54:18Z")
> [@HookerChemical](#): > > Let’s try this again. If those conditions are not met (because they are utterly absurd and you are a raging transphobe without a shred of decency or empathy), what will happen? He’ll still be the same raging transphobe as if those conditions _were_ met. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/374 "2016-05-08T15:57:10Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > She already has. I wanna see the citation that this brain deviation is nearly uniform across transgenders, not just that transgenders tend to have brain deviations from regular gendered people. Cite it, quote it, and yes, I’m looking for a number. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/375 "2016-05-08T15:59:47Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I wanna see the citation that this brain deviation is nearly uniform across transgenders, not just that transgenders tend to have brain deviations from regular gendered people. Cite it, quote it, and yes, I’m looking for a number. How large a sample would be acceptable to you? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/376 "2016-05-08T16:24:38Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I wanna see the citation that this brain deviation is nearly uniform across transgenders, not just that transgenders tend to have brain deviations from regular gendered people. Cite it, quote it, and yes, I’m looking for a number. Why? You’ve already explained to us that your idea of “acceptance” for transgender people is indistinguishable from bigotry, so there’s no point in anyone providing you with more cites – especially since you’re just going to ignore them anyway. You’re a loathsome idiot. All the cites in the world won’t change that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/377 "2016-05-08T16:26:31Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I wanna see the citation that this brain deviation is nearly uniform across transgenders, not just that transgenders tend to have brain deviations from regular gendered people. Cite it, quote it, and yes, I’m looking for a number. You’re asking for an incredible degree of rigor. Is this the same rigor you asked for when you analyzed studies about straight dudes’ boners when watching porn? Because I suspect you didn’t ask for that level of rigor when deciding whether homosexuality was a real thing. It’s weird, anyway. What’s your alternative hypothesis to explain transgenderism? Do you think there’s a better treatment for gender dysphoria that leads to better outcomes? Even were there no physical evidence of brain differences, how would that affect treatment protocols? You’ve got a terrible, fucked up view of sex and gender, and it’s making you miserable, and you’re blaming others for your misery. This isn’t even about transgender people. It’s about your fucked up views and about your misery. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/378 "2016-05-08T16:27:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So you just wander into to “Chicks With Dicks” porn accidentally?" > > (note: not my term for it) Guin, shut the hell up. You used the term on purpose, you’re engaged in a nasty little bit of mockery that you think entitles you to use shitty slurs because maybe you’re using them ironically or something, but it’s repulsive and you should stop. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/379 "2016-05-08T16:31:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How large a sample would be acceptable to you? Six, maybe seven inches. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/380 "2016-05-08T17:28:37Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And no one is telling you to do otherwise. Internet rumors of waking up in a hotel bathtub of ice post-surgery are just that, rumors. No one is going to surgify you unless you specifically request it. I thought when that happened it was your kidneys they stole, not um, other things. 😛 > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Guin, shut the hell up. You used the term on purpose, you’re engaged in a nasty little bit of mockery that you think entitles you to use shitty slurs because maybe you’re using them ironically or something, but it’s repulsive and you should stop. Oh shut up yourself. You’ve been posting here even longer than I have – you can’t honestly think I go around using terms like that on a regular basis. No shit it’s repulsive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980.md?page=20)