# On the Topic of Transgenders **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 5, 2016, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980 "2016-05-05T12:10:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/401 "2016-05-09T02:52:14Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This thread is now officially the “God made gay men get stiff” thread. how else can you measure sexuality? Sorry, not everyone is willing to accept everything being some liberal arts school gender studies. The meaning of gender and sexuality included. Some things are indeed concrete. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/402 "2016-05-09T02:57:45Z")
Oh goody, this thread is in the pit where it always belonged. > [@Arcite](#): > > What if a transgendered person applies for a job to work at my front desk? Is anyone then suggesting that I need to become affiliated with them? You know, if you killed yourself, you’ll never again have to interact with anyone you find distasteful. Just a thought… Or, you could man up and realize that you aren’t a special little snowflake, and that world doesn’t cater to your sensibilities (I thought people like you were good at that). You just might find people in the world who aren’t like you, and you may even have to treat them as human. Yes, even at work. But if one of those people that keep you up at night invites you out to socialize, or join their wicked club, you can still be the smug prick you are and instead go home alone to your miserable existence. Yes, even if they have the same shitty desk clerk job that you do. > [@](#): > > But, I want to live in a pre-1960’s America–basically everything you cultural leftists mock as “Leave it to Beaver,” “Ozzie and Harriet,” “Norman Rockwell” I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that, if you were alive before 1960, you were still in the phase where your family thought it was okay that you still were shitting and pissing yourself. Because you obviously weren’t paying attention to America before 1960…here’s a hint: Shows like “Leave it to Beaver” and “Ozzie and Harriet”, and the pictures Rockwell painted, _ **weren’t real** _. Television, art…those are things called fiction. You aspire to a time that never was. And **DerekMichaels00** : What are you, 12? I sincerely have a hard time believing that you are a day over 20. In fact, I bet you are still wearing your High School class ring to the Freshmen psych class where you first heard about gay penis studies. This entire thread is predicated on your frustration with not dating women you deem attractive and your trifling chances of getting laid the first night you meet a woman. You’ve painted a completely unflattering picture of yourself, and if it truly reflects your own perceptions, then I have little doubt that nothing here will change your mind. You need to completely change your life before you have any chance of getting your head out of your ass and growing up into a real adult. But you do have a point about Playboy, though. I mean, if that magazine ever started showing pictures of women who have had surgery to enhance their perceived femininity, there’d be some hell…to…pay, starting with Mr. Hefner himself. I can assure you of that. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/403 "2016-05-09T03:05:31Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > . . . Do you understand why that might be unappealing to the half of the human race who isn’t male, and the men who aren’t hetersexual, white, or Christian? . . . I am a white hetboy…and would find it appalling. (But, then, I’m an atheist…) Seriously, I’d hate it, because every day I would have to witness such gross inequality. I hate the inequality that exists today; I’d just puke to have to live in an era before the Civil Rights Act and the advances of women’s liberation. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > how else can you measure sexuality? . . . Just ask? Show a series of pictures or video-clips and ask? “On a scale of 1 to 10, does this turn you on?” There are going to be lots of times when the heart and head know what the penis doesn’t. Also…there is a huge risk of false reaction. If you take a totally hetero dude, and show him porn of two men in avid 69, it is entirely likely that the penis will react – nudity! sucking! flesh! – even as the witness’s higher emotional associations are negative. Studies have shown this to be true of (simulated) rape videos. The witness is appalled, horrified, outraged, disgusted…but he might still experience involuntary sexual arousal. You can’t reduce the entirety of the human sexual experience to just what Simon the Stiffy thinks. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/404 "2016-05-09T03:13:06Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > how else can you measure sexuality? > > Sorry, not everyone is willing to accept everything being some liberal arts school gender studies. The meaning of gender and sexuality included. Some things are indeed concrete. I find willful ignorance both fascinating and deeply sad. You are wrong. Very very wrong. But you refuse to accept even the possibility that you might be wrong. I’m sorry. It must be so frightening to be you. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/405 "2016-05-09T03:20:18Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > But they’re actual girls with REAL vaginas, real smooth girl skin, real breasts. Hands up pal! Where we can see 'em! > [@](#): > > I will never stand for being expect to lower my standards to a biological male, ever. Nor should any straight guy. OK, so you don’t want to be expected to fuck anyone you’re not attracted to. Nor should anyone. Not just straight guys. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I will accept transgenders if: > > 1. They and the pro-trans people accept that trans people **do not belong competing in the sport of their transitioned-to gender** > 2. That hetero cis men can find trans people repulsive without being called a bigot, and _can say so in public_ > 3. That trans people don’t start trying to pass themselves off as “cis,” or regular people and deceive them into a relationship. I never wanna go to a bar and find out that **the girl I’m about to lay down game to isn’t a girl. That’s disgusting.** \*(Bolding mine. Italics yours.) Aha! You’re afraid of the “trap”. Don’t wanna waste that game. (Presumably that’s the only “sport” you’re worried about.) Also, apparently, you want to be able to tell people they’re repulsive in public? There’s certainly something disgusting here. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Nobody’s saying you shouldn’t. You happen to be one of the lucky majority who were born with chromosomes, anatomy, and brain structure all corresponding to typical and socially validated characteristics for one clearly identified gender. So you didn’t have any conflicts or contradictions or social repression to work through in order to form a gender identity you feel confident in or comfortable with. Congratufuckinglations. > > But that doesn’t give you any right to look down on people whom the Lord (or who/whatever) evidently did **not** intend to have such an easy path to gender identification, because he/they/it gave those people an assortment of characteristics that **didn’t** all match the same gender. This exactly. \*\*Derek, \*\*you and I are part of the lucky majority. We got it easy with the whole gender identity/sexual orientation thing. Biological heterosexual males, as a group, have never had to suffer any real discrimination, and likely never will. The fact that things are finaly improving for folks who have not had it so lucky is something to be celebrated. Quit yer griping. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/406 "2016-05-09T03:24:14Z")
> [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > \*\*Derek, \*\*you and I are part of the lucky majority. We got it easy with the whole gender identity/sexual orientation thing. > Biological heterosexual males, as a group, have never had to suffer any real discrimination, and likely never will. > > The fact that things are finaly improving for folks who have not had it so lucky is something to be celebrated. > > Quit yer griping. Yo, **Not Carlson**? I’d totally date you. It’s patently clear, from this single post, that you are infinitely more attractive than our mutual friend. Interestingly enough, it has nothing at all to do with your appearance or height. Funny how that works, innit? ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/407 "2016-05-09T03:35:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Derek, you and I are part of the lucky majority. We got it easy with the whole gender identity/sexual orientation thing. > Biological heterosexual males, as a group, have never had to suffer any real discrimination, and likely never will. umm I’m a 5’1’’ male. People take extremely short men less seriously, fewer people wanna be seen with and be friends with them in middle and high school, even fewer girls want to give them what other guys get, as in sex/love, and you’re assumed to be unathletic, which is a trait that makes men popular both in school and in dating (ever notice the [Match.com](http://Match.com) girls putting “I want an athletic guy?”). Short mens’ disadvantage his been documented: > **[Walk tall](https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2002/04/25/walk-tall)** > > Why it pays to be a lanky teenager [https://www.vice.com/read/it-sucks-to-be-a-short-guy-511](https://www.vice.com/read/it-sucks-to-be-a-short-guy-511) > **[Height and Violent Suicide Attempts in Young Men](https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/569047)** > > Young male Swedish conscripts who had short birth lengths had a more than doubled risk for violent suicide attempts, a recent study found. > **[Do Short Men Stand A Chance? - AskMen](https://www.askmen.com/dating/heidi/51_dating_girl.html)** > > Did Kevin Hart Just Prove Once And For All That Short Men Really Do Stand A Chance? But myself and others like me aren’t trying to have society overall change the meaning of tall (as some are with gender), we’re not demanding “safe-spaces,” “trigger warnings,” etc. etc. But its still hard to call what short men experience anything other than discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/408 "2016-05-09T03:41:00Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > But its still hard to call what short men experience anything other than discrimination. This is true. It sucks, and you’re absolutely right: it’s not fair. I’m sorry you have to deal with that discrimination, and if I had a magic want to make it go away I would wave it in an instant. It’s stupid and it’s awful and it should not happen. And still… Are you seriously using that as an excuse for being a piece of shit about transgender men and women? ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/409 "2016-05-09T03:46:13Z")
> [@andros](#): > > This is true. It sucks, and you’re absolutely right: it’s not fair. I’m sorry you have to deal with that discrimination, and if I had a magic want to make it go away I would wave it in an instant. It’s stupid and it’s awful and it should not happen. > And still… > Are you seriously using that as an excuse for being a piece of shit about transgender men and women? because what God gave me that I didn’t chose which led to discrimination, and I don’t like, my height, I can’t escape or change. People who are not white, which God gave them, which also leads to discrimination, they can’t change (or easily hide). But these people actually deal with it. Why should people born male or female, two normal things that do not lead to _unique_ discrimination (I know sexism exists but that’s not the same as racism/height is), be able to change and get accepted with non-whites and short men can’t? Hard not to feel like they act like spoiled brats. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/410 "2016-05-09T03:50:28Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Hard not to feel like they act like spoiled brats. Actually, it’s pretty easy not to feel that way. I do it all the time. But I get that it’s scary. What would happen if you chose not to make those assumptions? What would it be like if you decided, just for a moment, not to assume “they” are all spoiled brats? ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/411 "2016-05-09T03:51:36Z")
The theme song of this thread is [lola](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaecsIUETYA). To the OP, I’m about 99.99% certain you’ll never be in a position where a transsexual person finds you attractive enough on any level, including blowing your mind, to have sex with you. That’s probably true for heterosexual women as well if you don’t get over yourself. Jus’ sayin’ ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/412 "2016-05-09T04:05:56Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > because what God gave me that I didn’t chose which led to discrimination, and I don’t like, my height, I can’t escape or change. People who are not white, which God gave them, which also leads to discrimination, they can’t change (or easily hide). But these people actually deal with it. > > Why should people born male or female, two normal things that do not lead to _unique_ discrimination **(I know sexism exists but that’s not the same as racism/height is)**, be able to change and get accepted with non-whites and short men can’t? Hard not to feel like they act like spoiled brats. My bolding. Are you seriously arguing that height discrimination is more egregious than sexism? You are a twit who can’t pull his head out of his ass long enough to notice that there are other people in the world. It may shock you to learn this but the reason you are not getting all the sex you want has nothing to do with your height. It’s because you’re a self-centered idiot who believes women should be honored by the opportunity to be graced by your penis, simply because you are a man and they have a vagina. It takes more than having a penis to be allowed to use it with others. You shouldn’t expect to get much use out of yours. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/413 "2016-05-09T04:11:53Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > …Yes, I am. The incidence of “passing” is greatly exaggerated by people who think they’re being clever when they tell us you can’t tell the difference between a man and a woman (unless they’re taking hormones and have had extensive surgery.) The vast majority of trans people look like what they are: a man trying to look like a woman, or vice versa. You may be underestimating the impact of hormones. In particular, a lot of transmen on hormones pass easily, whether or not they’ve had surgery. > [@Arcite](#): > > …But, I want to live in a pre-1960’s America–basically everything you cultural leftists mock as “Leave it to Beaver,” “Ozzie and Harriet,” “Norman Rockwell”… I don’t! Have you talked to many women who lived through those days? My mother says, “I have no idea why people call it the good old days, there has never been a better time than now, and things just keep getting better.” Maybe there have been other times when things were pretty good. But in the 50s middle-class women were stuck basically being trophy wives. They didn’t have the economic value women had as farmers, or as hunter-gatherers, for that matter. They were bored and frustrated and everyone told them how lucky they were to be treated as sub-adult dependents. And God help them if their husbands got bored and discarded them. Meanwhile, racial minorities had it even worse, and homosexuals killed themselves in nearly the numbers that transpeople do today. Naw, I’ll take today over back then. ---
**Author:** ![Arcite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/67e7ee/32.png) [@Arcite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arcite)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/414 "2016-05-09T04:18:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Note that moving goalpost. It used to be that the XY combination was the magical identifier of masculinity–but now you’re saying that if you lacked that, you’d accept something else. I’m not moving a goalpost. I never said anything about XY. That was DerekMichaels00. > [@](#): > > Let’s say there was some new genetic disorder, you were the first discovered member of it. Turns out you lack the SRY gene as well. At that point, can I call you Suzy, and will you put on a skirt? Or is your gender identity more important to you than your genetic makeup in terms of your sartorial decisions? That’s physiologically impossible. The SRY gene is necessary for male sex determination. Without it, I wouldn’t be phenotypically male. But regardless, apparently, in your hypothetical, I’m phenotypically male, so no. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why am I not surprised that you’d prefer to live in a country in which white supremacism is enshrined and supported by law? So typical of leftists. They describe their views as “nuanced” and “sophisticated,” and conservatives’ as “simplistic” and “black-and-white.” Yet apparently, one is either a liberal globalist or a Nazi. Those are the only two possibilities the modern liberal mind can conceive of. Talk about black and white. > [@Broomstick](#): > > I don’t. > > Why the HELL would I want to live in a society where it is legal and accepted to pay me less for doing exactly the same work as someone else, where discrimination is not only permitted but for some forms enshrined in law, and essentially if you weren’t a white, heterosexual, able-bodied, Christian male you were a second class human being at best? Well, in such a society, you could marry a guy with a good job and be a housewife, which would be much better than working. Who in their right mind would want to work? > [@](#): > > Do you understand why that might be unappealing to the half of the human race who isn’t male, and the men who aren’t hetersexual, white, or Christian? I’m positing a society in which the 1965 immigration act never happened, so America remained a basically white country, with a presumptive Christian identity at least in public life. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > In many states, if you deny them a job soly because they’re transgendered, you could be sued for discrimination. That was my point. Moriarty said that no one is suggesting that I become affiliated with transsexuals. But in fact the government can bully me into becoming affiliated with all sorts of people. > [@](#): > > Says you. People have posted pictures of trans men and women who have passed _very_ successfully. Only if they’ve had surgery and hormones. > [@](#): > > You’d still be XX, which according to you, means you’d be a female. Sorry, can’t have it both ways. No, as I said above, I did not say anything about XX vs. XY. > [@](#): > > Once again, prove it. You know what’s going to happen with these bathroom laws? It’ll be even easier for men to get into the women’s room, because they can also claim, “hey, I’m trans, I was born a woman!” Would you really feel “comfortable” if you saw this [guy](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Buck_Angel_Headshot.jpg) walk into the lady’s room? You’d REALLY be able to tell? > > I read an article the other day, about a woman who caught another WOMAN spying on her, and she was told, “I wanted to make sure you’re REALLY a woman”. See what’s happening now? Besides, do you know how hard it would be to spy on women in the lady’s room without getting caught? You’d have to peep through the crack of the door, stand on the toilet and peek down, or lay down on the floor and peek under. None of which are practical.\* ALL of us do our business behind closed doors. I don’t know what goes on in the men’s room, and quite frankly, after hearing all of this bullshit, I don’t want to know. > Quite frankly, I’m sick of the fact that it’s mostly MEN getting upset about the WOMEN’S room being violated. We’re not worried about it, for the most part. Because we realize how absurd the notion is. It has nothing to do with liberal vs. conservative, it has to do with fucking common sense. It’s already illegal to creep on people in public restrooms. And I can guarantee you’ve been in bathrooms with trans people, without knowing it. > > And finally, and I have YET to get answer about this: why have you never been worried about little BOYS being preyed on in the men’s room? > > \*Think I’m wrong? Prove it – try this in the men’s room the next time you see someone go into the stall. People on this board always assume that when I _describe_ the views of mainstream social conservatives, I’m saying that I hold those views, even though I used the word “they,” specifically phrasing my description as though I’m not one of them. I’m not too concerned about pervs faking trans-ness for cover, and I’m not particularly interested in these bathroom laws. Like I said above, I regard them as a somewhat misguided, pointless, last-ditch rear-guard effort when the ship has already sailed. > [@Moriarty](#): > > I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that, if you were alive before 1960, you were still in the phase where your family thought it was okay that you still were shitting and pissing yourself. Because you obviously weren’t paying attention to America before 1960…here’s a hint: Shows like “Leave it to Beaver” and “Ozzie and Harriet”, and the pictures Rockwell painted, _ **weren’t real** _. Television, art…those are things called fiction. But we did have a society which was 90% white, where homosexuality was in the closet, where illegitimacy was unacceptable, where men presumptively held more power and authority than women, and where society was publicly deferential to Christianity. I refuse to surrender to this cultural-left attitude that the past was evil, that there was nothing good about traditional America or traditional Western Civilization, that it should be impossible to have any kind of positive connection with our past. My grandmothers were not miserable victims of horrific oppression. They lived decent, contented lives. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/415 "2016-05-09T04:25:11Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > I’m positing a society in which the 1965 immigration act never happened, so America remained a basically white country, with a presumptive Christian identity at least in public life… > > But we did have a society which was 90% white, where homosexuality was in the closet, where illegitimacy was unacceptable, where men presumptively held more power and authority than women, and where society was publicly deferential to Christianity. Yeah, that says enough. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/416 "2016-05-09T04:33:38Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Yo, **Not Carlson**? I’d totally date you. It’s patently clear, from this single post, that you are infinitely more attractive than our mutual friend. > > Interestingly enough, it has nothing at all to do with your appearance or height. Funny how that works, innit? I do get the feeling that Derek sees the world in terms of what he does and doesn’t want to fuck. And this OP is a manifestation of his fear that he could somehow be tricked into fucking someone he’s not attracted to. Nay, his fear of being beguiled into attraction to a transgender woman. (Also: Tall and scruffy with long, doelike eyelashes, if you’re curious.) > [@andros](#): > > Actually, it’s pretty easy not to feel that way. I do it all the time. > > But I get that it’s scary. What would happen if you chose not to make those assumptions? What would it be like if you decided, just for a moment, not to assume “they” are all spoiled brats? His whole world could come crashing down. Then he would look up from the rubble and see the sun shining brightly, hear the song of a bird ring out sweet and pure, and with a new perspective and hope in his heart, he would begin to build a better world. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/417 "2016-05-09T04:53:39Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > umm I’m a 5’1’’ male. People take extremely short men less seriously, fewer people wanna be seen with and be friends with them in middle and high school, even fewer girls want to give them what other guys get, as in sex/love, and you’re assumed to be unathletic, which is a trait that makes men popular both in school and in dating (ever notice the [Match.com](http://Match.com) girls putting “I want an athletic guy?”). > > Short mens’ disadvantage his been documented: > . . . . . . > > But myself and others like me aren’t trying to have society overall change the meaning of tall (as some are with gender), we’re not demanding “safe-spaces,” “trigger warnings,” etc. etc. But its still hard to call what short men experience anything other than discrimination. You know we can see the marks on the field when you move the goalposts? I get the frustration of not being considered the hottest fish in the dating pool, but transgender people are not making life harder for you. Again, you’re seeing things in terms of sexual preference and attraction, when for transgender people it’s a matter of identity. It’s _about who they are_! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/418 "2016-05-09T05:00:19Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > But we did have a society which was 90% white, where homosexuality was in the closet, where illegitimacy was unacceptable, where men presumptively held more power and authority than women, and where society was publicly deferential to Christianity. You’re a bigotted douchebag. Nice to know. Don’t you have robes that need ironing? > [@](#): > > I refuse to surrender to this cultural-left attitude that the past was evil, that there was nothing good about traditional America or traditional Western Civilization, that it should be impossible to have any kind of positive connection with our past. My grandmothers were not miserable victims of horrific oppression. They lived decent, contented lives. No one’s saying the past was evil, but it wasn’t this grand eutopia you seem to think it was, either. My great-grandmother lost two sons when they were children to diseases that are easily preventable today. One died when he was three of whooping cough, the other died when he was seven of tetanus, after stepping on a rusty nail. She had several miscarriages and at least one stillborn. My dad told me about a kid in his neighborhood who had suffered from polio. I live in Pittsburgh. Back in those days, we were known as “Hell with the Lid Off”. You wanna know why? Because the air was so black from the smoke coming from all the mills, the street lamps were on 24/7. People had to bring extra clothes with them if they came down town to work – you’d get there and be covered in soot. Call me crazy, but I like clean air and modern medicine. (Oh, and if you’re trying to escape trans people, you’d have to go back a lot farther than the 1950s. The first sex-change operation was performed in 1931.) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/419 "2016-05-09T05:05:10Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > . . . But in fact the government can bully me into becoming affiliated with all sorts of people. . . . In terms of public accommodation, hiring, business dealings, etc…yes. Very much true. And also good. Do you really want to throw away all civil rights legislation, and allow shopkeepers to exclude black customers? That isn’t very appealing to most of us, especially those who know the history of the Jim Crow south. The government also bullies you into driving on the right and coming to a complete stop at a stop sign. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/420 "2016-05-09T05:06:35Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > No. Then there’s no point in discussing this issue with you, as you are in denial. And also an idiot. I cited five different papers talking about gender identity, two of which explicitly spoke about physiological causes for gender identity, and your response to that was: > [@](#): > > I don’t care if the brains of transsexuals show some differences from those of normal people. They should still be considered men who think they’re women or women who think they’re men, not men who have the accident of being born into a female body that should be altered with hormones and surgery or vice versa. To completely miss the point. Hey asshole, gender and sex are _different_. They’re two distinct characteristics. Things aren’t as simple as your retrograde brain thinks they are! > [@](#): > > What an insane society we’re living in, that an organization could be called a “hate group” for opposing adoption by homosexuals. What could be more hateful than allowing homosexual adoption? Who would want a kid to be raised by a pair of gay guys or lesbians? What a miserable existence. Oh no! A pair of loving parents who also happen to be of the same sex! THE HORROR! That’s clearly and obviously worse than being an orphan! Or being raised by a single parent! Or being raised by estranged or abusive parents! The only “miserable existence” here is yours, fucko. Study after study after study bears out that children raised by LGBT couples are, by almost every objective or subjective measure, just as well off as the children raised by straight couples. The _only_ place where they lag is that they are slightly more likely to be bullied. By fuckwits like you. This is easily remedied by essentially cutting fuckwits like you out of polite society and making it clear that it’s not okay to be a _bully_. > [@Arcite](#): > > Well, in such a society, you could marry a guy with a good job and be a housewife, which would be much better than working. Who in their right mind would want to work? Some women who like being financially independent and their own women? What, you think feminism was _foisted_ upon the women who demanded equal representation in the workforce and equal pay? Dude, how many ways do you insist on being wrong? > [@](#): > > I’m positing a society in which the 1965 immigration act never happened, so America remained a basically white country, with a presumptive Christian identity at least in public life. Oh. You’re also a racist. Congratulations! You’ve basically completed the full range of “terrible person” - anti-woman, anti-LGBT, and also a racist. Now I know not to leave any kittens where you might kick them. Douchebag. > [@](#): > > That was my point. Moriarty said that no one is suggesting that I become affiliated with transsexuals. But in fact the government can bully me into becoming affiliated with all sorts of people. Yeah. Like black people. > [@](#): > > But we did have a society which was 90% white, where homosexuality was in the closet, where illegitimacy was unacceptable, where men presumptively held more power and authority than women, and where society was publicly deferential to Christianity. And you know what the result was? A whole lot of really unhappy, marginalized people who were forced to hide who they were, or who couldn’t hide who they were and who suffered as a result. The society of the 50s was great for exactly one group of people: well-off Christian cisgendered heterosexual white men. Compared to now, it sucked for women, non-white people, non-Christians, and the entire LGBT spectrum. I’ll gladly take the trade-off of those people getting voices in society vs. bigoted fuckwits like you being _uncomfortable_ about it. In my eyes? That’s a feature, not a bug. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980.md?page=22)