# On the Topic of Transgenders **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 5, 2016, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980 "2016-05-05T12:10:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/421 "2016-05-09T06:25:58Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > But we did have a society which was 90% white, where homosexuality was in the closet, where illegitimacy was unacceptable, where men presumptively held more power and authority than women, and where society was publicly deferential to Christianity. An anti-homosexual, patriarchal, sexually repressive society tailored to suit the ideals of one group of people under one religion? Yeah, there are people in the world today trying to establish such a society. You’ve probably seen a little of that project on the news recently. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/422 "2016-05-09T07:08:34Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > . . . Well, in such a society, you could marry a guy with a good job and be a housewife, which would be much better than working. Who in their right mind would want to work? . . . Oh, right, no work involved. No household labor, no chores, no responsibilities at all. Bullshit! What there really wasn’t was…pay. Unpaid labor. Wow, what an ideal situation. You’re a nut. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/423 "2016-05-09T07:48:32Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > Well, in such a society, you could marry a guy with a good job and be a housewife, which would be much better than working. Who in their right mind would want to work? My grandmother, who was one of the first women in Spain to get a degree in Business Management; she worked as a cashier and accountant for a music store before too many children made it incompatible. Her cousin who almost caused massive faints when she went to take her “end of long-distance college-training oral examination” and the tribunal discovered that R stood for Rosa; her whole career was spent as Madame Engineer in the local steelworks, Altos Hornos de Vizcaya. Their cousin who was personal secretary to Pilar Primo de Rivera, herself head of the Female Section of Falange. Aunt Rosa’s tribunal tried to reject her candidacy on account to being a woman but couldn’t, thanks to a law from a 16th century Queen. While I imagine Queen Juana wouldn’t have minded having a more decent father and husband, she definitely wasn’t much of a housewifely type either. And if you consider that being a housespouse is much nicer, hey, you know you can do it too, right? How’s your cooking and cleaning? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/424 "2016-05-09T09:00:18Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > But we did have a society which was 90% white, where homosexuality was in the closet, where illegitimacy was unacceptable, where men presumptively held more power and authority than women, and where society was publicly deferential to Christianity. You strongly imply this was a good thing. Why was this a good thing, especially for those who weren’t white, heterosexual, legitimate, women, and non-Christians? > [@](#): > > My grandmothers were not miserable victims of horrific oppression. They lived decent, contented lives. Well, without a culture that fully allowed them to express their desires and dreams, we’ll never know for certain, will we? > [@Trinopus](#): > > Oh, right, no work involved. No household labor, no chores, no responsibilities at all. Bullshit! > > What there really wasn’t was…pay. Unpaid labor. Wow, what an ideal situation. I have a feeling this comes from the seemingly common attitude that if you’re doing it for your family, you’re doing it because you love them, therefore it’s not “really” work, because it’s a labor of love. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/425 "2016-05-09T11:06:25Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > umm I’m a 5’1’’ male. People take extremely short men less seriously, fewer people wanna be seen with and be friends with them in middle and high school, even fewer girls want to give them what other guys get, as in sex/love, and you’re assumed to be unathletic, which is a trait that makes men popular both in school and in dating (ever notice the [Match.com](http://Match.com) girls putting “I want an athletic guy?”). > > Short mens’ disadvantage his been documented: > [Walk tall](http://www.economist.com/node/1099333) > [https://www.vice.com/read/it-sucks-to-be-a-short-guy-511](https://www.vice.com/read/it-sucks-to-be-a-short-guy-511) > [http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/569047](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/569047) > [Do Short Men Stand A Chance? - AskMen](http://www.askmen.com/dating/heidi/51_dating_girl.html) > > But myself and others like me aren’t trying to have society overall change the meaning of tall (as some are with gender), we’re not demanding “safe-spaces,” “trigger warnings,” etc. etc. But its still hard to call what short men experience anything other than discrimination. I think everything just clicked for me. Do women say they find short guys like you “repulsive”? Do they say that in public, without getting called bigots? Do they find the very idea of dating someone like you “disgusting” – which is why, like you were just saying, they want people like you to declare such physical qualities on [Match.com](http://Match.com) _before_ they waste time making small talk with you? Do they entertain the idea of a 5’1" male model for all of two seconds before saying “ew, no, never”? Would they, if asked, explain that women should never be expected to lower their standards and date a 5’1" male? Is that why you predicate your acceptance of transgender individuals on being able to treat them the way you’re treated? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/426 "2016-05-09T11:15:07Z")
[Totally below my standards](https://www.google.es/search?q=gervasio+deferr&espv=2&biw=984&bih=838&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwiAtfqx7szMAhWBEhQKHbHZBwcQ_AUIBigB). Oh wait, no. He’s actually not young enough to be my child… (That particular one happens to be all of 5’6", but he’s also one of the few male gymnasts whose name I remember. He’s got problems with some exercises due to being too tall for them. Yes, they tend to be shorter) ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/427 "2016-05-09T11:19:33Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > The society of the 50s was great for exactly one group of people: well-off Christian _cisgendered_ heterosexual white men. Compared to now, it sucked for women, non-white people, non-Christians, and the entire LGBT spectrum. you actually included “cisgendered” in there? See, this is what I wanna avoid. I personally sympathize with the blacks, women, and LGB people who lacked much of what they have today. But how many people are we gonna add in your sentence before there’s a million terms there? Honestly, why do progressives make such a stink over a group that’s like .03% of the population? It would just be much easier to see them as gay men or women, instead of threatening society to start giving conservatives a point about constant victimhood and causes du jour. Is “gender conforming” next to be in there? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/428 "2016-05-09T11:26:01Z")
People who wish they lived in a mythological pre-1960s world deserve to have the _real_ 2016 world rubbed in their faces at every opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/429 "2016-05-09T11:35:58Z")
Glad this thread is where it belongs. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Honestly, why do progressives make such a stink over a group that’s like .03% of the population? Because treating people like shit is bad regardless of how small of a group it is, and defending everyone, not just large groups, against bullying assholes is good. The argument ‘it’s only a few people, why can’t I be an asshole to them’ just doesn’t hold a lot of water with most people. And really, why do conservatives make such a stink over a group that’s like .03% of the population? You could just ignore them completely instead of passing laws to attack them, you know. But oh no, there’s some chance you might interact with someone who has a medical condition you don’t like, and you might _gasp_ talk to them or expend effort on them before finding out that they aren’t what you’re looking for. Also, FYI, I know a decent short guys who have either long-term steady relationships or lots of women in the little black book (depending on preference), and one thing they all have in common is that they don’t have a chip on their shoulder about height. Your love life will probably benefit more from ditching the ‘woe is me, I’m short’ attitude than by attacking trans people, and once your love life is in decent shape you won’t have to worry about people recommending that you date people you’re not attracted to. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/430 "2016-05-09T11:42:30Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > Well, in such a society, you could marry a guy with a good job and be a housewife, which would be much better than working. Who in their right mind would want to work? **I’m a human being, not a pet.** I want to be _able_ support myself even if I don’t have to because Stuff Happens, which is how my grandmother wound up being the sole support of two young boys and her sister in the 1920’s. On half the salary the men got for doing the exact same work. Holy crap, I have a brain, I have skills, why should they be wasted by forcing me to doing nothing but housework and cooking? I’d be bored senseless in no time. No wonder so many 1950’s housewives were heavily medicated. And if I can’t get a “a guy with a good job”? Because I wasn’t Christian, for example, so my pool of eligible husbands was much smaller and also faced discrimination because they weren’t Christians (no joke - in the late 1950’s my father was traveling on business and the local sheriff came to his hotel room and told him to either leave town and find some other place to stay by sundown or face arrest). We faced discrimination in where we could live (house deeds with restrictions that the property could only be sold to certain types of people are a bitch). And we could pass as white folks, I can only imagine the hell that black people went through back then. But, mostly, **I AM NOT A PET**. I am a human being. I should not be _forced_ to marry, or to marry a particular man, or stay married in order to survive. > [@](#): > > I’m positing a society in which the 1965 immigration act never happened, so America remained a basically white country, with a presumptive Christian identity at least in public life. _\>cough\<_ There were non-white people in this country before 1965! What the hell are you smoking? And why should I, who have never been a Christian, have to play-act in public? Why should my father’s family, which has never been Christian, have to play-act in public? What you’re saying is anyone not like you has to live a lie, forever and ever - no wonder we “non-conformists” were held to be untrustworthy! _We were forced to lie and then condemned for lying._ ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/431 "2016-05-09T11:48:33Z")
> [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > I do get the feeling that Derek sees the world in terms of what he does and doesn’t want to fuck. > And this OP is a manifestation of his fear that he could somehow be tricked into fucking someone he’s not attracted to. Holy crap, it all makes sense now. **DerekMichaels00** is [Belkar Bitterleaf](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html). He’s even got the height thing going. That said, Belkar doesn’t seem to have any problems getting laid, so perhaps the theory needs some work. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/432 "2016-05-09T11:50:30Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > And if you consider that being a housespouse is much nicer, hey, you know you can do it too, right? How’s your cooking and cleaning? I love my housespouse. Not just because I love the person. I love that I haven’t had to scrub the bathroom in ages, that’s his chore. (I still do the cooking, but that’s because I’m the better cook. When I met him his idea of a “home cooked meal” was opening a can of peas and eating them at room temperature. He’s improved his skills, but not that much) ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/433 "2016-05-09T11:56:18Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > umm I’m a 5’1’’ male. People take extremely short men less seriously, fewer people wanna be seen with and be friends with them in middle and high school, even fewer girls want to give them what other guys get, as in sex/love, and you’re assumed to be unathletic, which is a trait that makes men popular both in school and in dating (ever notice the [Match.com](http://Match.com) girls putting “I want an athletic guy?”). And yet, Peter Dinklage has a wife and gets more sex than likely you ever will and he’s much shorter than you. 4’5" or something like that. Again, if you’re not getting pussy it’s not your height that’s the problem. (I’ve known a bunch of guys Derek’s height or shorter who managed to get dates and/or wives, but since none of them are well known I went for the celebrity) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/434 "2016-05-09T11:59:11Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > [Totally below my standards](https://www.google.es/search?q=gervasio+deferr&espv=2&biw=984&bih=838&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwiAtfqx7szMAhWBEhQKHbHZBwcQ_AUIBigB). > > Oh wait, no. He’s actually not young enough to be my child… > > (That particular one happens to be all of 5’6", but he’s also one of the few male gymnasts whose name I remember. He’s got problems with some exercises due to being too tall for them. Yes, they tend to be shorter) Y’know, it was thirty years ago this week that folks started saying _hey, have you seen the latest movie where Tom Cruise clicks with a taller woman?_ Namely, the one where he’s the Navy’s top fighter pilot and shirtless-volleyball enthusiast? Navy recruiting went through the roof? **Air Force** recruiting went through the roof? Sales of leather jackets and aviator sunglasses went through the roof? I see where he’s got another action-hero movie set to come out later this year, with yet another leading lady he’s shorter than – and does anyone say he’s not fit enough or good-looking enough to play the part? (Yeah, his psychology gets him the same raised eyebrow as John Travolta – but Travolta’s _tall,_ so that ain’t it.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/435 "2016-05-09T12:00:20Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > because what God gave me that I didn’t chose which led to discrimination, and I don’t like, my height, I can’t escape or change. People who are not white, which God gave them, which also leads to discrimination, they can’t change (or easily hide). But these people actually deal with it. > > Why should people born male or female, two normal things that do not lead to _unique_ discrimination (I know sexism exists but that’s not the same as racism/height is), be able to change and get accepted with non-whites and short men can’t? Hard not to feel like they act like spoiled brats. Throughout history, every bigot thought that they had good reasons for their bigotry. They thought they were special – that they were smart and honest, and had good reasons for their hatred/repulsion/disgust. You are not special. Your bigotry is not special. It’s just more run-of-the-mill bigotry, however you try to justify it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/436 "2016-05-09T12:00:39Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > Well, in such a society, you could marry a guy with a good job and be a housewife, which would be much better than working. Who in their right mind would want to work? Someone who wants to be able to make her own decisions. Someone who wants to be able to decide how to spend money, or where to live, or whom to sleep with, or whether to have a child, or to leave someone because she doesn’t like him or because he mistreats her. No one in his or her right mind thinks women had it better when they were completely dependent on their husbands (if they could find one). Tens of thousands of women who got pregnant out of wedlock were forced to give up their children for adoption or or have a shotgun marriage. Marital rape was legal. There is just so much wrong about your conception of what life was like in the 1950s that it’s hard to unpack it all. Of course, your wish for life before the Immigration Act is pretty much an admission of a desire for a racist and white supremacist society. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/437 "2016-05-09T12:01:44Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > So typical of leftists. They describe their views as “nuanced” and “sophisticated,” and conservatives’ as “simplistic” and “black-and-white.” Yet apparently, one is either a liberal globalist or a Nazi. Those are the only two possibilities the modern liberal mind can conceive of. Talk about black and white. So typical of idiots to make up straw-men about Nazis and “black and white” instead of actually replying to what I wrote. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/438 "2016-05-09T12:06:48Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > But we did have a society which was 90% white, where homosexuality was in the closet, where illegitimacy was unacceptable, where men presumptively held more power and authority than women, and where society was publicly deferential to Christianity. Yes, and it was a great time and place to be a straight white Christian man. And it was great to be a straight white Christian woman, unless your husband was an abusive asshole, or unless you had aspirations to do any work outside of the home, or unless you were the victim of rape, or unless you wanted to have full control of your own body… Other categories, probably not so much. > [@](#): > > I refuse to surrender to this cultural-left attitude that the past was evil, that there was nothing good about traditional America or traditional Western Civilization, that it should be impossible to have any kind of positive connection with our past. My grandmothers were not miserable victims of horrific oppression. They lived decent, contented lives. More straw-men. There were good things about the past, including the 50s and before. Many people were happy – not every single woman, or every single black person, or whoever, were brutalized or otherwise victimized. But it was so bad in so many ways that it boggles the mind why anyone would want to return to those times, unless one desires greater oppression and brutality for black people, women, gay people, and the like. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/439 "2016-05-09T12:48:07Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > … > > Well, in such a society, you could marry a guy with a good job and be a housewife, which would be much better than working. Who in their right mind would want to work? > … My grandmothers were not miserable victims of horrific oppression. They lived decent, contented lives. Well, good for your grandmothers. I’ve been a housewife, and I’ve been the primary wage earner. Being the primary wage earner is better. My husband also prefers to work. He was a stay at home dad for many years, but when the kids left the house, he found a full-time job. We didn’t need the money. I could have continued to support him. But gee, i guess neither of us is in our right mind. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/440 "2016-05-09T13:49:31Z")
“A fella was walking down the boardwalk by the beach and came upon a young lady in a wheelchair without any arms or legs just crying her eyes out. ‘What’s wrong Missy?’ ‘I was born without arms or legs and nobody will dance with me.’ So the fella grabs her up and swings her around. Her tears dry up and bids the fella good day with a smile on her face.” “Couple days later the same fella finds the same young lady crying. ‘What’s wrong?’ ‘I was born without arms and legs and nobody will kiss me.’ He grabs her up and plants a full-on deep-tongue kiss that just curls her heart. She bids the fella good day with a smile on her face.” “Couple of days after that there she is again just crying as hard as ever.” ‘I was born without arms and legs and nobody will fuck me.’ So the fella grabs her up and throws her into the surf. ‘There, now you’re fucked’" This humorous interlude brought to you by _The Chicago Reader_[sup]©[/sup] … “we’re not responsible for the advertising content” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980.md?page=23)