# On the Topic of Transgenders

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980>\
**Category:** The BBQ Pit\
**Created:** [May 5, 2016, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980 "2016-05-05T12:10:00Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 24

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**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\
**Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/461 "2016-05-09T16:35:15Z")

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> [@DerekMichaels00](#):
>
> because short men, in and of themselves, are indisputably real. You can see it, measure it, etc. Once you have that, then I accept social science. 100% of men under 5’6’’ are under 5’6’'.
> 
> With transgenders, what a transgender is in and of itself is still not known fully. Once it is, if it ever is, then I’ll accept the social sciences. When you and others can show me a large, widespread representative sample that \<99% of transgenders have brains unique from both heterosexual and homosexual regular gendered people, then I’ll join your view.

If you’re just not sure, then why do you say such hateful things about them, that they’re “repulsive” and “disgusting”, and why do you demand the “right” to say hateful and hurtful things about them without being criticized? They’ve never hurt you. Why would you want to say hateful things about strangers, especially when you admit that they may in fact be honestly describing their own identity?

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**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\
**Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/462 "2016-05-09T16:44:17Z")

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> [@DerekMichaels00](#):
>
> because short men, in and of themselves, are indisputably real. You can see it, measure it, etc. Once you have that, then I accept social science. 100% of men under 5’6’’ are under 5’6’'.
> 
> With transgenders, what a transgender is in and of itself is still not known fully. Once it is, if it ever is, then I’ll accept the social sciences. When you and others can show me a large, widespread representative sample that \<99% of transgenders have brains unique from both heterosexual and homosexual regular gendered people, then I’ll join your view.

What if only 50% of transgender folk have a different brain–what conclusion can you draw?

What if I can show you that 99% of transgender folk have, under an MRI, regions of the brain associated with stress become active when confronting the idea of acting as their assigned sex? Wouldn’t that be just as “real” as the studies showing sexual preference?

What if nobody had done research on sexual arousal and sexual preference: would you not recognize homosexuality as a real thing?

You’re acting as though you’re interested in a phenomenological approach, but one of the most basic phenomena is that when people report their own experiences, that’s the single best indicator of how they experience the world. For something external (do fairies exist?) someone’s reported experiences may be faulty; but for something internal (do people identify as a gender other than their assigned gender?) self-reports are the gold standard.

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**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\
**Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/463 "2016-05-09T16:46:13Z")

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Today’s SMBC feels relevant for some reason.

> **[Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal - Attention](https://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=4105)**
>
> Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal - Attention

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**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\
**Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/464 "2016-05-09T16:54:37Z")

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> [@Superdude](#):
>
> I’m more worried about the .5 kid.

That one’s easy, shared custody. The more often given .7 would worry me more.

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**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\
**Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/465 "2016-05-09T16:59:10Z")

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> [@DerekMichaels00](#):
>
> because short men, in and of themselves, are indisputably real. You can see it, measure it, etc. Once you have that, then I accept social science. 100% of men under 5’6’’ are under 5’6’'.
> 
> With transgenders, what a transgender is in and of itself is still not known fully. Once it is, if it ever is, then I’ll accept the social sciences. When you and others can show me a large, widespread representative sample that \<99% of transgenders have brains unique from both heterosexual and homosexual regular gendered people, then I’ll join your view.

…_why?_

If someone tells us “I always felt like a female in a male’s body, so I had a doctor take a scalpel to my penis and got myself pumped full of hormones for to better fit my new identity, as per the legal name change that accompanied my sex-change operation,” then how is mental sincerity even an _issue?_

Haven’t you and I already been given an _outstanding_ reason to believe that said person’s brain works in said way? Isn’t that claim inherently believable no matter what the MRI says? Why is the brain scan relevant?

(Or, to put it the other way around: imagine you find that 99.9% of such folks _do_ have a specific unusual feature. And imagine, too, that you have that feature – but you patiently explain that you’vr never had the slightest desire to become a woman. Who am I going to believe: you, or the scan?)

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**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\
**Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/466 "2016-05-09T17:02:26Z")

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BTW **Derek** , that “athletic” in dating sites refers to build, not prowess.

[Not athletic,](https://www.google.es/search?q=marathon+champion&rlz=1C1IRFF_enES541ES541&espv=2&biw=2133&bih=1061&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZzu6DvM3MAhVG0RQKHX1aBlAQ_AUIBigB&dpr=0.9) too thin.

[Not athletic](https://www.google.es/search?q=harrijasotzaile&rlz=1C1IRFF_enES541ES541&espv=2&biw=2133&bih=1061&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi9wrCjvM3MAhVD8RQKHXCwCboQ_AUIBigB&dpr=0.9), too big and with little to no definition.

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**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\
**Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/467 "2016-05-09T17:02:47Z")

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> [@DerekMichaels00](#):
>
> how else can you measure sexuality?

If you continue to measure everything with your dick - you’re always going to come up short.

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**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\
**Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/468 "2016-05-09T17:03:33Z")

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> [@DerekMichaels00](#):
>
> because short men, in and of themselves, are indisputably real. You can see it, measure it, etc. Once you have that, then I accept social science. 100% of men under 5’6’’ are under 5’6’'.
> 
> With transgenders, what a transgender is in and of itself is still not known fully. Once it is, if it ever is, then I’ll accept the social sciences. When you and others can show me a large, widespread representative sample that \<99% of transgenders have brains unique from both heterosexual and homosexual regular gendered people, then I’ll join your view.

Nobody is arguing that short people don’t exist. You’re relying on social science to say that they have things difficult, but pissing over science that indicates that transgender people are a real phenomenon. If anything, that science (biology and brain scans) is a more “solid” science than the science on the social effects of being short. You’re throwing out the science you disagree with while embracing the science you like.

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**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\
**Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/469 "2016-05-09T17:12:41Z")

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> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#):
>
> It’s also [a low estimate](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-we-dont-know-the-size-of-the-transgender-population/). One survey that asked people whether they were transgender got a 0.5% affirmative response; the going estimate in the field, as far as I can tell, is 0.3%.
> 
> Let’s try 0.03%. That’s three of every ten thousand people, or three hundred in every million. In North Carolina, about three thousand people are transgender, by that very low estimate. On our nation, it’s 90,000.
> 
> A law that regularly makes life very difficult for 3,000 people is a terrible law. But that’s likely a small estimate by an order of magnitude.

The best estimates by myself and transgender researchers and clinicians here is that there are at least 2,000 transgender (binary and non-binary) people in just the KC metro area. That’s about 1 in 1,000 for people who will openly refer to themselves as such. The number of closeted persons is estimated to be 1 in 500.

In my high school graduating class, there are already 6 (adult) children of classmates who are openly transgender (I know this because mom/dad reached out to me after they saw my posts on a class FB group). And that’s just out of 212 classmates I still have some form of contact with via the FB group. I don’t know how many total kids there are in that grouping, but if we assume each classmate had 2.5 kids on average, that’s 6 in 530 known, or 1 in 88 (even to me that’s a stunningly high number, but it makes me not terribly skeptical of a 1 in 500 number.)

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**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\
**Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/470 "2016-05-09T17:59:58Z")

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> [@DerekMichaels00](#):
>
> What do you think of the trans issue? My view:  
> if you have a y-chromosome, you’re a male. If you don’t, you’re a female. PERIOD. Gender and sex are the same. Bruce Jenner is a man, as is Bradley Manning. Chastity Bono is a female, and Aydian is a female too.
> 
> I accept that gay men are biologically wired differently than straight men. This is obvious to me because a straight man’s penis gets hard to female facilitated stimuli, therefore it follows that gay means a gay man’s penis gets stimulated by male stimuli. I heard gay men’s brains are wired differently, and given how we could actually witness a manifestation of that, I believe it.
> 
> Now given that, what is the difference between a gay man and a “transgender woman?” Can someone please enumerate that?
> 
> Sometimes, I feel like the trans-rights movement is just a stalking horse for gay rights; it makes gay "cis"genders appear more normal to people who waver on gay rights. It also seems like the transvestite movement is a way to effectively erase being gay for those who can’t handle it. Or that its a last frontier for gay rights, now that gays can serve openly and marry in 50 states, they don’t want the fight to be over.
> 
> Trans-rights activists claim that using the term “real woman” is transphobic, as they say is questioning the “womanhood” of a transgender. That being said, is it transphobic for a heterosexual “cisgender” male to not be attracted to transwomen, if a transwoman is really a woman?
> 
> Will some day, straight cismen be expected to consider transwomen for sexual/romantic partners, as some kind of next frontier of “equality?”

Would you tell a hermaphrodite to be either a man or a woman because you want them to make a choice that would you make you more comfortable?

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**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\
**Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/471 "2016-05-09T18:05:09Z")

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> [@Emiliana](#):
>
> Thank the lord for wet vages! I do think old Derek is having us on. The troll meter just exploded.
> 
> …

I’m not so sure it’s a troll. He’s missing many of the characteristics common to trolls. Just posting stupid crap doesn’t make you a troll anymore than stuffing feathers in your ass makes you a chicken. Although, your meter was correct, feeding this one is not really productive. 🙂

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**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\
**Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/472 "2016-05-09T18:05:54Z")

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> [@Guinastasia](#):
>
> I read an article the other day, about a woman who caught another WOMAN spying on her, and she was told, “I wanted to make sure you’re REALLY a woman”. See what’s happening now? Besides, do you know how hard it would be to spy on women in the lady’s room without getting caught? You’d have to peep through the crack of the door, stand on the toilet and peek down, or lay down on the floor and peek under. None of which are practical.\* ALL of us do our business behind closed doors. I don’t know what goes on in the men’s room, and quite frankly, after hearing all of this bullshit, I don’t want to know.  
> Quite frankly, I’m sick of the fact that it’s mostly MEN getting upset about the WOMEN’S room being violated. We’re not worried about it, for the most part. Because we realize how absurd the notion is. It has nothing to do with liberal vs. conservative, it has to do with fucking common sense. It’s already illegal to creep on people in public restrooms.
> 
> space
> 
> And I can guarantee you’ve been in bathrooms with trans people, without knowing it.
> 
> snipl.

Absolutely. Hell, I went through grad school with a woman who was trans (had the reassignment surgery to become female), and I never even knew it until she mentioned it to me. Had we been in the ladies’ room together, ever, it wouldn’t have been a problem. I don’t think it was a problem before some legislators went and turned it into one.

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**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\
**Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/473 "2016-05-09T18:11:01Z")

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> [@vivalostwages](#):
>
> Would you tell a hermaphrodite to be either a man or a woman because you want them to make a choice that would you make you more comfortable?

Ted Cruz’s position is they should use their bathrooms at home. Completely ban them from the use of public bathrooms.

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**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\
**Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/474 "2016-05-09T18:33:30Z")

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This thread is insane. The OP clearly is a short, fat, troll who can’t get laid.

And Arcite showed his true colors. What a total freak. I think this guy is a doctor too. Scary.

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**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\
**Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/475 "2016-05-09T19:18:39Z")

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> [@running\_coach](#):
>
> Ted Cruz’s position is they should use their bathrooms at home. Completely ban them from the use of public bathrooms.

Yes, of course. They should be expected to hold it for hours at a time while they’re busy running errands, going on a long road trip, attending classes, Etc.

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**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\
**Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/476 "2016-05-09T19:35:35Z")

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> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> I think everything just clicked for me.
> 
> Do women say they find short guys like you “repulsive”? Do they say that in public, without getting called bigots? Do they find the very idea of dating someone like you “disgusting” – which is why, like you were just saying, they want people like you to declare such physical qualities on [Match.com](http://Match.com) _before_ they waste time making small talk with you? Do they entertain the idea of a 5’1" male model for all of two seconds before saying “ew, no, never”? Would they, if asked, explain that women should never be expected to lower their standards and date a 5’1" male?

Far be it from me to defend a transphobe, but the answer to the above is “yes”. Certainly not all women. Probably not even most. But for a significant number of women, short men are a turn-off.

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**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\
**Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/477 "2016-05-09T19:36:24Z")

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You know, if these assholes’ viewpoints weren’t so disgusting, you’d almost feel sorry for their so-called plight. Why? Because regular, old, everyday life in 2016 must scare the absolute hell out of them. Imagine, you couldn’t even go to the restroom at your local McDonald’s without being terrified that a bunch of liberals might gang up on you, take away Fox News and your wife beater, then force you to have sex with someone you despise, all while being charged too much for your socialist Quarter Pounder that you’ll probably have to share with other undesirables… like minorities or the cis women you can’t believe have jobs.

Geesh. It’s a scary world out there, people.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\
**Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/478 "2016-05-09T19:38:22Z")

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> [@vivalostwages](#):
>
> Yes, of course. They should be expected to hold it for hours at a time while they’re busy running errands, going on a long road trip, attending classes, Etc.

I believe that Ted Cruz (and probably the OP) would reply “they should have thought of that before they decided to be transgender”.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\
**Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/479 "2016-05-09T19:42:12Z")

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> [@faithfool](#):
>
> You know, if these assholes’ viewpoints weren’t so disgusting, you’d almost feel sorry for their so-called plight. Why? Because regular, old, everyday life in 2016 must scare the absolute hell out of them. Imagine, you couldn’t even go to the restroom at your local McDonald’s without being terrified that a bunch of liberals might gang up on you, take away Fox News and your wife beater, then force you to have sex with someone you despise, all while being charged too much for your socialist Quarter Pounder that you’ll probably have to share with other undesirables… like minorities or the cis women you can’t believe have jobs.
> 
> Geesh. It’s a scary world out there, people.

You’re right, of course.

But what really amuses me is how this is all laid on top of the unquestioned presumption that it’s perfectly okay to have segregated-by-gender restrooms and locker rooms in the first place. To not want a transgender person in a restroom with you is irrational fear, but to not want someone of the opposite gender who is not transgender (i.e. cisgender male in a women’s room) is still fine. In fact, it’s what transgender people want too, since they want to use a certain restroom. Nobody says that’s irrational or calls for abolishing this form of segregation.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\
**Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/480 "2016-05-09T19:43:04Z")

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> [@faithfool](#):
>
> Imagine, you couldn’t even go to the restroom at your local McDonald’s without being terrified that a bunch of liberals might gang up on you, take away Fox News and your wife beater, then force you to have sex with someone you despise, all while being charged too much for your socialist Quarter Pounder that you’ll probably have to share with other undesirables… like minorities or the cis women you can’t believe have jobs.

Socialist Royale with Cheese, because metric system.

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