# On the Topic of Transgenders **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 5, 2016, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980 "2016-05-05T12:10:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/141 "2016-05-06T18:25:59Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Probably wouldn’t. Not every topic is necessary to respond to. You can choose to engage or not. It’s my opinion that who one wants to be sexually active with is mostly his/her/? own business. If you want to have relations with a turnip, have at it. I probably won’t debate the pros and cons or if you are a bigot or not for not liking intercourse with a pumpkin under any circumstance. That’s all personal business. For the record, that wasn’t the plural “you”; I was just asking the OP, which is why I’d copied-and-pasted the terms under which he’d “accept” such people – you know, if and only if he can publicly call them “repulsive” without being called a bigot, plus he wants to say it’s “disgusting” for them to act a certain way, and ‘ew, no, never’. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/142 "2016-05-06T18:33:07Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > For the record, that wasn’t the plural “you”; I was just asking the OP, which is why I’d copied-and-pasted the terms under which he’d “accept” such people – you know, if and only if he can publicly call them “repulsive” without being called a bigot, plus he wants to say it’s “disgusting” for them to act a certain way, and ‘ew, no, never’. If sexual attraction were strictly a rational choice would the subject ever come up? Your question in some way mirrors his statement. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/143 "2016-05-06T18:35:58Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > As has been pointed out, just because a lot of your friends share your bigoted views does not change the fact that it is still bigotry. Is Dr. Paul McHugh also a bigot? “Transgenderism: A Pathogenic Meme” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/144 "2016-05-06T18:36:03Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Your question in some way mirrors his statement. Uh, yeah. That’s, like, the point of it. I wasn’t exactly shooting for ‘subtle’. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/145 "2016-05-06T18:51:16Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Is Dr. Paul McHugh also a bigot? > > “Transgenderism: A Pathogenic Meme” Seems to be, at least on the subject of gender identity. Even the smartest people cannot be right all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/146 "2016-05-06T18:54:48Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Is Dr. Paul McHugh also a bigot? [Yes.](https://skeptoid.com/blog/2015/02/18/bruce-jenner-paul-mchugh-and-science-denialism/) > [@](#): > > McHugh instead embraces the idea of autogynephilia, otherwise known as “Blanchard’s autogynephilia typography,” or BAT. BAT argues that transgender women are actually just extremely gay men and that the rest are just heterosexual men with a fetish for their female identities. Autogynephilia was never widely accepted as science, has been highly criticized since its introduction, and only exists in any form today because the idea’s originator, Ray Blanchard, sat on the board that compiled the DSM-V. Even then, it’s relegated to a small sub-section of the “paraphilic disorders” category, nowhere near the diagnosis of gender dysphoria. > > McHugh also voices a common trans denialist position that claims gender-reassignment surgery (GRS) is not an effective treatment for gender dysphoria. In fact, trans denialists like to tout McHugh’s connection to Johns Hopkins Hospital, one of the first medical institutions to offer GRS, in support of this claim. The hospital has since stopped performing GRS because, they say, the institution “no longer saw a need to amputate ‘normal organs’.” What they fail to mention is that this happened in 1979 and was largely done because McHugh himself was the one in charge. Hopkins Hospital hasn’t brought it back since, not because they still stand by McHugh’s views, but because the administration feels that there’s no need to start a new program, as there are other facilities that perform the surgery. > > Furthermore, the study McHugh used to justify the cessation of the surgeries at Johns Hopkins was flawed. It is is often held up as “proof” that such surgeries are ineffective, but that study was done in the late 1970s, at a time when the procedures were still rare and experimental; and it was done by Johns Hopkins, under the purview of McHugh himself, and focusing only on a small sample size of patients at Johns Hopkins. This all suggests ample conflicts of interest for a man who admits to having been opposed to GRS from the start… > > Finally, McHugh and trans denialists also support the supposed value of reparative therapy. “Advocates for the transgendered,” McHugh wrote in 2014, “have persuaded several states […] to pass laws barring psychiatrists, even with parental permission, from striving to restore natural gender feelings to a transgender minor.” The “natural gender feelings” line is just more biological determinism; the rest is advocating for a type of therapy that was part of the stew of intolerance and rejection that recently led to the heart-rending suicide of Leelah Alcorn. Reparative therapy has been outlawed in several places because it doesn’t work and because it causes harm to those it tries to “cure.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/147 "2016-05-06T18:56:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why do you have such a strong desire to say hateful and hurtful things about people you’ve never met and who have hurt no one? Well, ISTM that **DerekMichaels00** has been very candid about the reason for that: he is alarmed by the possibility of someday hitting on a transgender woman without realizing she’s transgender, and (much less realistically) by the possibility that his family or society in general will someday expect him to be willing to date transgender women even though he’s not attracted to them. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > […] we don’t go around trying to change “traditional masculinity,” blaming “patriarchy” for “marginzalizing” us, calling for “safe spaces,” […] :rolleyes: This from the guy who just started a whole GD thread to kvetch about being marginalized by trans acceptance in mainstream media and demand “safe spaces” from transgender women not immediately identifying themselves as transgender, e.g., in bars. > [@watchwolf49](#): > > Thousands of […] children were poisoned so the State of Michigan could save a little money, yet somehow y’all think letting chromosynaptic males use the Ladies Restroom is the most serious problem facing our country? As I said to **DerekMichaels00** before, the only reason transgender issues are a big story is that so many conservatives are losing their shit over them. If y’all weren’t trying to pass bathroom-check legislation and sending vigilante gender monitors into Target restrooms and assaulting people in a fit of alleged “trans panic” and all that nonsense, the subject of what a bunch of inconspicuous individuals happen to have in their underwear would be entirely non-newsworthy. (And I join the consensus advising you that your use of the word “darkie” isn’t coming across as so humorously sarcastic as you may think it is. Discussing racial subjects without using racial slurs may be less “edgy” but it’s still a good idea.) ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/148 "2016-05-06T19:16:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > [Yes.](https://skeptoid.com/blog/2015/02/18/bruce-jenner-paul-mchugh-and-science-denialism/) That’s an excellent quote. It’s also worth noting that anti-transgender people frequently engage in the “tyranny of the tiny minority” tactic, where they pick one, or even a handful of studies or experts as somehow massively being more relevant than the opinions and research done for decades by thousands of other researchers across the globe, as well as the established opinions of major medical bodies, such as the AMA. It’s very similar to dealing with AGW deniers, who will keep grabbing one scientist here and one scientist there, casting them as the “lone rebels fighting for the truth.” Hell, if I search hard enough I can find internal medicine doctors who believe in spirit surgery, with impressive-sounding schools, education, and credentials. Good thing the vast majority of the world uses science. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/149 "2016-05-06T19:21:31Z")
**Una** , I know you’ve posted links a million times. I’m wondering if there’s a single website that has a nice collection of links to research along with a summary of conclusions. When I Google, I’m finding individual studies, which are hard for a layperson to read; and collections of “debunked myths” that have no cites to back up the debunking. Something in between would be a super-helpful resource, but I don’t know where to find it, or even if it exists. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/150 "2016-05-06T19:32:30Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Is Dr. Paul McHugh also a bigot? > > “Transgenderism: A Pathogenic Meme” Yes, actually, he is. McHugh is a storied medical professional. But to my knowledge, despite his propensity to mouth off on this subject, he hasn’t published anything on the subject in peer review. Instead, he occupies the same space as people like Peter Duesburg - former medical professionals who stumbled upon a pet issue and refused to either shut up or say something coherent or meaningful on it. His claims are baseless, he has yet to present any research of his own, and his interpretations of the existing research are cherry-picked and horribly flawed. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/151 "2016-05-06T19:39:57Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I will accept transgenders if: > > 1. They and the pro-trans people accept that trans people do not belong competing in the sport of their transitioned-to gender > 2. That hetero cis men can find trans people repulsive without being called a bigot, and _can say so in public_ > 3. That trans people don’t start trying to pass themselves off as “cis,” or regular people and deceive them into a relationship. I never wanna go to a bar and find out that the girl I’m about to lay down game to isn’t a girl. That’s disgusting. > 4. That given their small proportion of the population, their representation in media reflect that. What’s next: Playboy putting one of them on, to show “solidarity with equality?” Ew, no, never. Personally, I am totally on-board with this idea. In fact, as a cisgender heterosexual woman who is 5 foot 5, I want to unequivocally, loudly, and publicly proclaim my total disgust of men who are shorter than I am. I mean, seriously, it’s repulsive. Men are supposed to be tall, and if a guy is shorter than I am, how can he expect to be treated like a regular person? I will accept short men, as long as none ever wear lifts, start a conversation while seated, “omit” height in an online dating ad, and I am never at risk of accidentally seeing one naked. I think most women agree with me on this important issue. \*Playgirl \*needs to carefully screen their models, because no one wants to see some short guy in an effort to maintain “equality” or something. And I would be appalled if I found out I was flirting with some short guy online! And no one should ever say to me that I should “lower my standards” and consider dating a short man. Ew, no, never. And while I may draw a warning, and I accept that, I would like to point out that I am no more singling any one out than the OP is singling out the transgender individual(s) participating in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/152 "2016-05-06T19:49:38Z")
Like the OP, I also don’t entirely understand the concept of transsexuality, or of gender identity. But do you know what? It doesn’t matter. If it makes someone happy for me to refer to that person as “she”, well, that’s easy enough. Even the notorious restroom issue is no big deal: Why does it matter if someone with a penis (or who used to have a penis) uses the women’s room, or if someone with a vagina (or who used to have one) uses the men’s? I mean, like it or not, I think we all agree that homosexual people exist, which means that we’ve already got some people using the same restroom as people they’re sexually attracted to. It hasn’t caused any big problem yet, so why would we expect it will now? Does this mean that I would want to date, or marry, a transgendered woman? Maybe not. But last I checked, nobody’s forcing me to marry anyone I don’t want to. So that’s not an issue, either. What, exactly, is the issue, then? Why should anyone object to transsexuality? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/153 "2016-05-06T20:03:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > What, exactly, is the issue, then? Why should anyone object to transsexuality? Because it’s part of a PLOT to take away the urinals from men’s bathrooms. Transgendered folk are out to de-masculinize men by forcing them to use girly-girl toilets to pee, rather than manly, he-man style urinals. IT’S IN REVELATIONS, PEOPLE!!! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/154 "2016-05-06T20:07:21Z")
I thought it was in 1st Johns. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/155 "2016-05-06T20:16:42Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Personally, I am totally on-board with this idea. In fact, as a cisgender heterosexual woman who is 5 foot 5, I want to unequivocally, loudly, and publicly proclaim my total disgust of men who are shorter than I am. I mean, seriously, it’s repulsive. Men are supposed to be tall, and if a guy is shorter than I am, how can he expect to be treated like a regular person? > > I will accept short men, as long as none ever wear lifts, start a conversation while seated, “omit” height in an online dating ad, and I am never at risk of accidentally seeing one naked. I think most women agree with me on this important issue. \*Playgirl \*needs to carefully screen their models, because no one wants to see some short guy in an effort to maintain “equality” or something. And I would be appalled if I found out I was flirting with some short guy online! > And no one should ever say to me that I should “lower my standards” and consider dating a short man. Ew, no, never. > > And while I may draw a warning, and I accept that, I would like to point out that I am no more singling any one out than the OP is singling out the transgender individual(s) participating in this thread. Umm nature and God made short men and tall men. Those forces did not make transgenders. Transgenderism is a social construct. Also, I’ve dealt with people like you my whole life. So have other short men. And as I said, we’re not out blaming “patriarchy” and “oppression” for God-given woes. We’re not asking for laws to be changed. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/156 "2016-05-06T20:20:16Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Transgenderism is a social construct. Exactly. Gender _itself_ is a social construct. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/157 "2016-05-06T20:22:20Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Umm nature and God made short men and tall men. Those forces did not make transgenders. Transgenderism is a social construct. Bullshit. You know nothing about the topic. You very obviously bear personal hatred for trans people, and you just make stuff up about them without knowing anything. Your pronouncements about trans people are worth no more than David Duke’s assertions about Jews or black people. Let go of your personal feelings of repulsion, disgust, and hatred. They don’t do you any good, nor do they do anyone else any good. Those feelings only lead to unhappiness, for you and others. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/158 "2016-05-06T20:30:35Z")
So you want the right to insult people and say they’re disgusting, but you don’t want people to get upset when you do that? Yeah, that makes sense. :dubious: > [@](#): > > yea, we don’t go around trying to change “traditional masculinity,” blaming “patriarchy” for “marginzalizing” us, calling for “safe spaces,” expecting magazines to put us naked on the cover, etc. So you’re saying you DO suffer from a [Napoleon Complex](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_complex), aka Short Man’s Syndrome? That’s not exactly a compliment, or something to be proud of. In fact, I’m starting to wonder if it’s not just your “height” that you’re compensating for. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/159 "2016-05-06T20:36:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > What, exactly, is the issue, then? Why should anyone object to transsexuality? The same reason people objected to homosexuality: if they make life as unpleasant as possible for these people, maybe they’ll go back in the closet or even, you know, stop doing whatever icky stuff they’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/160 "2016-05-06T20:45:55Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Umm nature and God made short men and tall men. Those forces did not make transgenders. Transgenderism is a social construct. The study showing differences in the brains of cisgendered and transgendered (which are different from the differences between straight and gay brain structure) would be evidence against this assertion. Do you have any evidence for your assertion? > [@Smapti](#): > > Exactly. Gender _itself_ is a social construct. I think it is more accurate to say that gender roles are social constructs but I believe that gender itself is an objective thing again citing studies showing differences in brain structure as evidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980.md?page=9)