# On the Topic of Transgenders **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 5, 2016, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980 "2016-05-05T12:10:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/161 "2016-05-06T20:46:58Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Umm nature and God made short men and tall men. Those forces did not make transgenders. Transgenderism is a social construct. > > Also, I’ve dealt with people like you my whole life. So have other short men. And as I said, we’re not out blaming “patriarchy” and “oppression” for God-given woes. We’re not asking for laws to be changed. “People like me?” I am sure you would never say something insulting to a woman who declared that you were not a real man, because real men are tall. Or expressed repulsion at the idea that you are a “regular” person. Or beat you up because you’re pretending to be a man when you aren’t. Or strong-armed you out of the men’s room because you don’t belong there. You are advocating for the “right” to be insulting and repulsive in your statements, and at the same time\* expect no consequences for that.\* You want to be rude and have that rudeness protected - because it is much worse to be called a “bigot” than to be called “disgusting” or “repulsive.” ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/162 "2016-05-06T20:54:59Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Umm nature and God made short men and tall men. Those forces did not make transgenders. Transgenderism is a social construct. > > Also, I’ve dealt with people like you my whole life. So have other short men. And as I said, we’re not out blaming “patriarchy” and “oppression” for God-given woes. We’re not asking for laws to be changed. If laws disallowed short people from, say, marriage, wouldn’t you want them changed? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/163 "2016-05-06T20:59:14Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Umm nature and God made short men and tall men. Those forces did not make transgenders. Transgenderism is a social construct… No, how we react to people who don’t fit neatly into the gender binary is a social construct, but God and/or nature made people who don’t fit the gender binary. Do you realize that scientists can create rats who don’t act according to rat gender norms by fiddling with the ratio of sex hormones they are exposed to in utero? Do you realize that a small number of people who are born who are literally hermaphrodites, with some bits of each sex? How many people admit they aren’t gender-normative and how many stay deeply closeted are affected by social constructs. The existence of those people? Not so much. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/164 "2016-05-06T21:15:06Z")
**DerekMichaels00** , why can’t you just change your views to be more inclusive? I mean, your views are only in your head, right? You have no way of physically proving that your views exist, so by your standard, they are completely inconsequential and should be given no consideration by anyone else whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/165 "2016-05-06T21:26:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > **Una** , I know you’ve posted links a million times. I’m wondering if there’s a single website that has a nice collection of links to research along with a summary of conclusions. When I Google, I’m finding individual studies, which are hard for a layperson to read; and collections of “debunked myths” that have no cites to back up the debunking. Something in between would be a super-helpful resource, but I don’t know where to find it, or even if it exists. TransAdvocate has a lot of articles and FAQs, as does the Transgender Law Center. On specific subjects like the brain, transition as effective treatment, and sports issues, I’ve done some work. The problem is that the haters just keep popping up, most refuse to read citations, others handwave away the ones they do read, or just fall back on the “it’s just common sense” canard. I’ve been trying to compile things myself but it’s like whack-a-mole. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/166 "2016-05-06T21:29:32Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Umm nature and God made short men and tall men. Those forces did not make transgenders. Yes they did. First Google hit. [http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/](http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/167 "2016-05-06T21:48:44Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I will accept transgenders if: > > 1. They and the pro-trans people accept that trans people do not belong competing in the sport of their transitioned-to gender > 2. That hetero cis men can find trans people repulsive without being called a bigot, and _can say so in public_ > 3. That trans people don’t start trying to pass themselves off as “cis,” or regular people and deceive them into a relationship. I never wanna go to a bar and find out that the girl I’m about to lay down game to isn’t a girl. That’s disgusting. > 4. That given their small proportion of the population, their representation in media reflect that. What’s next: Playboy putting one of them on, to show “solidarity with equality?” Ew, no, never. I do not really care whether you “accept” transgender people or not. No one can force you to follow the dictates of your God to love other people. However, the basis you put forth for your refusal to act in accordance with the dictates of your God is nonsense. 1. Please provide evidence that there is any serious effort by some mass of transgender people to overwhelm sports. Can you name anyone other than Renée Richards who has ever competed in major sporting events? This is a nonsense argument against an invented problem. 2. This is nothing but a call to accept hatred in public. Lots of men (including a prominent presidential candidate) already declare various women “repulsive” without suffering any serious harm for their obnoxious behavior. One more nonsense argument against an invented problem. 3. This is just silly. Utterly silly. There is not even a point to a person engaging in the behavior of what you appear to be afraid. (And you declare that you will only “accept” transgender people if you get some sort of guarantee that something that does not happen will never happen.) One more nonsense argument against an invented problem. 4. The only reason that there is any media attention given to such people, today, is that morons in various state governments are going out of their way to penalize and discriminate against that tiny minority of people. Interracial marriage received the same sort of undue media attention when states went out of their way to interfere with human relations based on nonsense claims of a need for separation. If folks like you would simply accept that some people have different biological and psychological situations than your imagined as a child, the issue would no longer be of interest to anyone and the news media would wander off to report something else. Now, your OP noted some assertions, now shown to be wrong, and asked some question, now answered. You have not provided a single bit of serious evidence to dispute the facts, so I am puzzled why you continue to post unsupported opinions,often based on imaginary problems, in a debate forum. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/168 "2016-05-06T22:00:16Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Bigotry is not protected speech in Great Debates. Then why did I get a warning? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/169 "2016-05-06T22:07:08Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Is Dr. Paul McHugh also a bigot? > > “Transgenderism: A Pathogenic Meme” [Yes](http://mindifithink.blogspot.com/2015/06/read-this-first-pathogenic-meme-by-paul.html). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/170 "2016-05-06T22:15:53Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Transgenderism is a social construct. Do you have any serious evidence for this odd claim? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/171 "2016-05-06T22:17:52Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Then why did I get a warning? You didn’t get a warning because you used hate speech; you got a warning because you engaged in “personal snarkiness” against the instruction of a mod. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/172 "2016-05-06T22:27:13Z")
> [@pool](#): > > I try to respect everybody I’m not going to treat people with disrespect because they dress as the gender they think they are. I do worry sometimes though when I see things in the news about parents allowing their kid to transition in like elementary school, I’m not sure kids at that age are mature enough to do that, granted a gay child may know their gay at that age, but for transgender kids, I think a lot of stuff needs to be ruled out first, kids are very cruel at that age and its not something that has to be rushed, if it is observed not to just be a phase, but something that is consistent then maybe the kid can begin to transition at the right time and place but I don’t think there is any harm waiting till a more mature age. If anything, transgender kids figure out they’re different before the gay kids do, and both of them figure it out way before the adults think they do. Waiting until “a more mature age” can mean a someone can never pass as their identified gender vs. starting earlier. Of course, it depends on what you mean by “mature”. For underage kids nothing irreversible is done, the most is a delay of puberty for a couple years, and meanwhile the kid needs to be in therapy. If it turns out transition is not the thing for that person puberty-blockers can be discontinued. If transition is the game plan when the kid comes of age then, particularly the transwomen, can start their transition without having acquired a deep voice, beard, and other male secondary sexual characteristics which can impeded passing. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/173 "2016-05-06T22:37:08Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Then why did I get a warning? Because you mocked the person, not his bigotry. Calling the OP a bigot is not allowed. Calling his opinion bigotry is not. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/174 "2016-05-06T22:38:43Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > **DerekMichaels00** , why can’t you just change your views to be more inclusive? I mean, your views are only in your head, right? You have no way of physically proving that your views exist, so by your standard, they are completely inconsequential and should be given no consideration by anyone else whatsoever. Whaddyamean you can’t prove it? What happened to strapping someone to a chair and showing them pictures while monitoring their vital signs? Is that off the table all of a sudden? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/175 "2016-05-06T22:44:04Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > He won’t, he’s using Great Debates to launch a direct, hateful attack on people like me because he knows he can’t be flamed here. He has no facts or science, and it’s clear he’s just grabbing random things from Google, or just making it all up. > [@faithfool](#): > > I say you guys should quit pointlessly beating your heads against a human wall in frustration, and save your efforts for folks who truly want to be educated. I’m not holding out any hope of changing the OP. The engagement I do is for those reading without commenting who may still be open-minded. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/176 "2016-05-06T22:55:09Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > The study showing differences in the brains of cisgendered and transgendered (which are different from the differences between straight and gay brain structure) would be evidence against this assertion. Do you have any evidence for your assertion? You’re asking for actual evidence from someone who has just posted essentially “God Did It” as one of his premises. I don’t hold out much hope here. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/177 "2016-05-06T23:05:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I do not really care whether you “accept” transgender people or not. No one can force you to follow the dictates of your God to love other people. > > However, the basis you put forth for your refusal to act in accordance with the dictates of your God is nonsense. > > 1. Please provide evidence that there is any serious effort by some mass of transgender people to overwhelm sports. Can you name anyone other than Renée Richards who has ever competed in major sporting events? > This is a nonsense argument against an invented problem. > > 2. This is nothing but a call to accept hatred in public. Lots of men (including a prominent presidential candidate) already declare various women “repulsive” without suffering any serious harm for their obnoxious behavior. > One more nonsense argument against an invented problem. > > 3. This is just silly. Utterly silly. There is not even a point to a person engaging in the behavior of what you appear to be afraid. (And you declare that you will only “accept” transgender people if you get some sort of guarantee that something that does not happen will never happen.) > One more nonsense argument against an invented problem. > > 4. The only reason that there is any media attention given to such people, today, is that morons in various state governments are going out of their way to penalize and discriminate against that tiny minority of people. Interracial marriage received the same sort of undue media attention when states went out of their way to interfere with human relations based on nonsense claims of a need for separation. If folks like you would simply accept that some people have different biological and psychological situations than your imagined as a child, the issue would no longer be of interest to anyone and the news media would wander off to report something else. > > Now, your OP noted some assertions, now shown to be wrong, and asked some question, now answered. > You have not provided a single bit of serious evidence to dispute the facts, so I am puzzled why you continue to post unsupported opinions,often based on imaginary problems, in a debate forum. In a democratic society isn’t the point to respect the will of the majority? The majority might be un-enlightened but do you think insulting the majority is the best way to enact your agenda? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/178 "2016-05-06T23:10:05Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > In a democratic society isn’t the point to respect the will of the majority? Maybe, but if so, nobody on Earth lives in a democratic society. > [@](#): > > The majority might be un-enlightened but do you think insulting the majority is the best way to enact your agenda? Well, this particular “agenda” is going to get enacted sooner or later just by virtue of old people dying off and younger people who don’t care about the issue replacing them. The insults, meantime, are mostly for fun. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/179 "2016-05-06T23:11:38Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Maybe, but if so, nobody on Earth lives in a democratic society. > > Well, this particular “agenda” is going to get enacted sooner or later just by virtue of old people dying off and younger people who don’t care about the issue replacing them. > > The insults, meantime, are mostly for fun. And lead to a fun anti-PC backlash. I’m sure the rise of Trump and in Europe, nationalism, is going to be a lot of fun for the next 15 years. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980/180 "2016-05-06T23:19:44Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And lead to a fun anti-PC backlash. I’m sure the rise of Trump and in Europe, nationalism, is going to be a lot of fun for the next 15 years. Sure, but the Baby Boomers were _always_ going to fuck things up in their final years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-the-topic-of-transgenders/753980.md?page=10)