# On vitriol and the state of America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2019, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295 "2019-06-10T13:11:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/181 "2019-06-12T12:33:59Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I honestly don’t know if you read threads or just posts that quote you. There are a slew of posters triggered by my advice to move to escape predation. Of course I knew they wouldn’t like the fact that I suggested such a thing. Perhaps my time as a liberal has given me insight into their ideology. Disagreeing with you does not mean that you’re reading their mind. There are more than 2 positions (and 2 motivations/intentions/feelings) about these kinds of issues. You’re basically guessing – someone could disagree with you for a whole host of reasons, but you’re assuming it’s the worst (or silliest) one. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/182 "2019-06-12T12:55:26Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > 1994 was before Reagan? 😛 The trend had been building for a long time, arguably since the Republicans’ Southern Strategy in 1968 created its enduring partnership with the Southern Baptist Convention - the religious self-righteousness just comes in a package with its racism. Goldwater’s quote, combined with his own history, was just to put them into clearer perspective. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/183 "2019-06-12T12:57:59Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Without Maryland’s ERPO law, Mr. Willis would most likely still be alive today. Yes, if there were no law, he wouldn’t have been breaking it. No one disagrees. You need to drop this and find a relevant example, okay? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/184 "2019-06-12T13:29:00Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Without Maryland’s ERPO law, Mr. Willis would most likely still be alive today. As I noted in my post comparing his death to Eric Garner’s death, “Certainly there is some amount of blame that can be laid at the dead men’s feet in both cases”, but Mr. Willis would not have been surprised by law enforcement at his door trying to enforce an order he knew nothing about at 5:00 am if it were not for Maryland’s ERPO law. In that sense, the law was a contributing factor in his death, just like the NY’s “loosie” ban was a contributing factor in Garner’s death, but his own decisions also contributed to his demise. If you aren’t capable of grasping that, I don’t know how else to explain it to you. You know, it’s possible to understand what a person is saying, yet still disagree. You know that, right? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/185 "2019-06-12T13:52:45Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > We force racist waitresses to serve black people at restaurants. > > Why should religious bigots get a free pass to refuse service to their customers? I wouldn’t give them a “free pass”. I would be quite disturbed if there were medical providers doing this in my area. I would dissociate from any organization that endorsed this policy and individuals that participate in such a policy. What is your idea of a free pass? > [@](#): > > Fuck their bigotry, if they can’t serve all the customers who need service, they should quit and find a new line of work that doesn’t anger their personal sky pixie. I agree, though I would refrain from displaying such ignorance about religion. > [@](#): > > Or, if you prefer, if they find the law is predatory upon their career and religion, move to a new career, or a new religion. Sure they could. Do you think I only advocate that liberal statists move to friendlier areas? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/186 "2019-06-12T13:53:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Disagreeing with you does not mean that you’re reading their mind. There are more than 2 positions (and 2 motivations/intentions/feelings) about these kinds of issues. You’re basically guessing – someone could disagree with you for a whole host of reasons, but you’re assuming it’s the worst (or silliest) one. No I’m not assuming anything, but thanks for your input. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/187 "2019-06-12T14:02:26Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > No I’m not assuming anything, but thanks for your input. Okay. Your assertions about the motivations of liberals/progressives regarding sanctuary cities and protesting community injustice in general are, for the most part, wildly incorrect. If you’re interested in why progressives/liberals push certain issues, then I would be happy to answer any questions about it from the point of view of a progressive/liberal. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/188 "2019-06-12T14:18:17Z")
Others have already offered their reasoning for opposing political migration. Thanks for the offer though. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/189 "2019-06-12T14:31:56Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Civ IV liberalism is classical liberalism which is different than modern liberalism. Nevertheless I always do a double take when someone uses “liberal” in a pejorative manner. And we didn’t learn about “modern liberalism” in school, we learned about “progressivism”. FDR, LBJ, MLK, etc. weren’t normally described as “liberals”, they were “progressives” (although they were liberals in the classical sense, too). Mind you we never learned about conservatism in school, except maybe one paragraph about Barry Goldwater stating that he opposed the New Deal and LBJ but lost. Then suddenly school was out and we had to turn in our textbooks. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/190 "2019-06-12T14:37:31Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Others have already offered their reasoning for opposing political migration. Thanks for the offer though. If I may, that is totally not what Andy offered you. Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/191 "2019-06-12T15:00:24Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > If I may, that is totally not what Andy offered you. Wow. I think he meant to write, “other liberals/progressives have already offered their reasoning for their political views on immigration.” It still smacks of disdain, but this way it is more relevant to the preceding post. As written now, **WillFarnaby** ’s response is a little out there. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/192 "2019-06-12T15:05:59Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Also recently sanctuary cities were very upset that those they pretend to advocate for were going to be dropped off in their towns by Trump and Co. They believed the migrants should stamp an indignant foot until they get a better deal instead of taking the opportunity to get out of Trump’s evil clutches. Pure martyrdom. This is absolutely false. Multiple mayors publicly stated [they were happy to welcome those migrants to their cities.](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-sanctuary-mayors/u-s-mayors-decry-trump-sanctuary-city-threat-prepared-to-welcome-migrants-idUSKCN1RO2E3) It is possible to simultaneously be willing to accept migrants, while being angry that Trump sees migrants as a punishment, and thinks he’s entitled to punish cities who disagree with him, and the idea that he’s entitled to use desperate, vulnerable people as weapons. All of these are stupid, hateful, and autocratic beliefs. It’s pretty insane to see staunch conservative dual-sovereignty defenders cheerfully do a complete 180 when it comes to using local law enforcement for federal policy. I look forward to your enthusiastic support when future Democratic presidents decide to employ this precedent for their own purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/193 "2019-06-12T15:16:41Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I’m sure you’ve got some Libertarian-style ‘paramedics letting someone bleed out doesn’t count as killing them’ claim, but I don’t accept that weird set of definitions. An aside: I asked a paramedic a while back what would happen if they had a patient near-death (but saveable!) in the ambulance and, en route to the hospital, they see a person literally bleeding out on the side of the road. The paramedic told me it is a shame, but _medical ethics_ indicated they could not always interrupt the care of the patient already in the ambulance. The life of the patient is assumed to be just as valuable as the life of the person on the side of the road. I asked if they could let off an EMT to stop the bleeding then continue to the hospital. He pointed out that a lone EMT might not be able to provide adequate medical care and this would be a point of liability, doubly so if the patient in the ambulance dies and the hospital is sued for letting the EMT off (which either adds time to the route or deprives the patient care team a critical set of hands). Thus _hospital policy_ says that the ambulance must drive on in all but the most extreme cases, such as if a group of people are bleeding out or the person in is able to consent to a stop. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/194 "2019-06-12T15:21:09Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Others have already offered their reasoning for opposing political migration. Thanks for the offer though. I’m not aware of anyone in this thread “opposing political migration”. Haven’t seen a single such post. Care to cite? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/195 "2019-06-12T17:17:09Z")
I paid very little attention to politics, especial the personalities of politicians, until retirement. I came of age under Nixon, but hardly paid attention to Watergate. It was Gingrich and Judge Starr’s spending millions tracking down the semen-stained dress that awakened me. But I was still willing to give Dubya a chance until the hypocrisies of the Iraq War became impossible to overlook. Nowadays I come in contact with very few Americans; those few are mostly older white males. I smile but no longer say Hello: odds are they are Trumpists. I know OP specifically passed that the thread be ABOUT vitriol rather than vitriolic itself, but we’re here to try to stamp out stupidity right? Thus … > [@Velocity](#): > > If U.S. elections were consistently 80% Republican or Democrat, the winning side would soon try to strip away the losing side of various rights and freedoms. What are the strongest synonyms of _wrong_ and _stupid_ that are allowed outside the Pit? 😛 The Ds are specifically the Party of Inclusion. They favor extending rights to women as well as men, to blacks and whites, to gays and straights, to rich and poor. _Inclusion._ The GOP almost brags about being the _Party of Exclusion_. Look up Inclusion and Exclusion in a dictionary for heavens’ sake. The infuriating ignorance in an unfounded _Tu Quoque_ like we see from **Velocity** provokes my vitriol. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/196 "2019-06-12T17:41:38Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The Ds are specifically the Party of Inclusion. They favor extending rights to women as well as men, to blacks and whites, to gays and straights, to rich and poor. _Inclusion._ The GOP almost brags about being the _Party of Exclusion_. Which the GOP will no longer be allowed to do if the Dems have their way. They’re having their rights to strip away the rights of other people stripped away. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/197 "2019-06-12T18:52:49Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Which is why there’s a “but” and more to the sentence that you excluded from the quote. It’s the same ‘but’ one finds between “I hate to be rude” and something rude, so I disregarded what followed. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/198 "2019-06-12T19:22:51Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes. The amount of predation must overwhelm the costs associated with moving. Still better than stamping your indignant foot. If you reread you will see that I was giving advice to victims of government predation. This is practical advice, not some ideological martyrdom you prefer for some reason. There is nothing “practical” in advice to people to pick up and move so that your tender feelings are not hurt because they are protesting. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > It is easier now to escape bigotry than ever before. You don’t even need to flee the old US of A. You seem to think that until there are no costs associated with moving, victims should endure all costs of staying no matter how excessive. The other poster posited scenarios where the clear solution was moving. I will never give advice to someone that will make them worse off. It is (generally) easier nw, in the U.S. than in former times. I never demanded that there be no costs. (There are costs for protesting, as well.) The clear solution is to promote change, not run and hide. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Thankfully your ideological martyrdom didn’t stop the Underground Railroad. Perhaps you would have counseled enslaved workers to stay and stamp an indignant foot. Maybe those who fled Nazi persecution should have got political? Would that have saved them? I am not claiming martyrdom; that is your straw man. As to the Underground Railroad, that pretty clearly falls under my notation of who can or will move: that group being one that requires a move to escape persecution. Although, it must be noted that the vast majority were lacking the facilities and support to employ moving. And both those fleeing slavery and those fleeing Naziism were physically restrained from doing so. However, not unexpectedly, you are changing the subject from those who are participating members of society seeking to improve their position in it (to whom you do not choose to listen) to a different class of people: those physically constrained to slavery of one sort or another. (I realize that in your world, paying taxes so that merchandise and people can employ roads for communication and trade along with requiring vaccinations to prevent the suffering and deaths of millions is a form of slavery, but the rest of us live in the real world and do not share your odd beliefs.) ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/199 "2019-06-12T19:42:38Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So there should be no distinction between allowing someone to die and committing physical aggression against someone to kill them? I don’t pretend that strawman arguments are real. No one in this thread made the claim you’re asking me if I support, and I’m not going to treat your question as a valid one. Incidentally, I’m also not going to do the Libertarian Definition Dance as far as definitions go either. Especially since you’ve made the absurd claim that Nazis aren’t in favor of violence. [quote] Since I neither shrugged it off or whined about that, you have no reason to be horrified. [/qutoe] You did, in fact shrug it off; you’re shrugging it off in this post. The fact that you’re not horrified by the behavior and instead endorse protecting the people who engage in it from consequences is part of what I’m referring to as ‘shrugging it off’. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/200 "2019-06-12T20:06:37Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The “change to the Census” is merely to ask if people are citizens. His administration is not proposing that we “exclude non-citizens” from the census count or population totals. The administration sure is going to great lengths to not provide information behind the totally innocuous rationale for adding this question then, huh? Can you provide some reasonable explanation for why they would invoke executive privilege to keep this completely innocent proposal under wraps? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295.md?page=11)