# On vitriol and the state of America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2019, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295 "2019-06-10T13:11:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/201 "2019-06-12T20:24:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > His administration is not proposing that we “exclude non-citizens” from the census count or population totals. Of course not, his administration is proposing that non-citizens exclude themselves from the census count and population totals by adding the fear of deportation to the census form. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/202 "2019-06-12T20:58:03Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > The administration sure is going to great lengths to not provide information behind the totally innocuous rationale for adding this question then, huh? Can you provide some reasonable explanation for why they would invoke executive privilege to keep this completely innocent proposal under wraps? Before we all run off into guessing games and gotcha traps, let’s just lay out [what was found on strategist Thomas Hofeller’s hard drives.](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/30/us/census-citizenship-question-hofeller.html) . If you don’t know who Thomas Hofeller is, he is known as the “Michaelangelo of Gerrymandering” and he urged the Trump transition team to add the question to the census. > [@](#): > > Mr. Hofeller’s exhaustive analysis of Texas state legislative districts concluded that such maps “would be advantageous to Republicans and non-Hispanic whites,” and would dilute the political power of the state’s Hispanics. > > The reason, he wrote, was that the maps would exclude traditionally Democratic Hispanics and their children from the population count. That would force Democratic districts to expand to meet the Constitution’s one person, one vote requirement. In turn, that would translate into fewer districts in traditionally Democratic areas, and a new opportunity for Republican mapmakers to create even stronger gerrymanders. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2019, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/203 "2019-06-12T21:29:27Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > There is nothing “practical” in advice to people to pick up and move so that your tender feelings are not hurt because they are protesting. It is very practical. It changes their lives for the better while protesting makes it worse by devoting energy to things that do not bear fruit. > [@](#): > > It is (generally) easier nw, in the U.S. than in former times. I never demanded that there be no costs. (There are costs for protesting, as well.) The clear solution is to promote change, not run and hide. That is not a solution for a minority. Especially if they are a part of a very small minority, political action is a nonstarter. A solution is to move and improve your life instantly. > [@](#): > > I am not claiming martyrdom; that is your straw man. No the American liberal relies on others’ martyrdom to promote his agenda. Of course you will not martyr yourself. > [@](#): > > As to the Underground Railroad,that pretty clearly falls under my notation of who can or will move: that group being one that requires a move to escape persecution Minorities require moves to escape predation if the majority isn’t budging. It is in these instances I have made my recommendation for political migration that you as a liberal are arguing against (hi iiandyii are you reading this?) > [@](#): > > Although, it must be noted that the vast majority were lacking the facilities and support to employ moving. And both those fleeing slavery and those fleeing Naziism were physically restrained from doing so. Right it was harder to move back then but still advisable. Precisely my point. It is easier now and you discourage political migration. > [@](#): > > However, not unexpectedly, you are changing the subject from those who are participating members of society seeking to improve their position in it (to whom you do not choose to listen) to a different class of people: those physically constrained to slavery of one sort or another. More privilege. There are many who are restrained in prisons across the US. It is impossible as a minority to overcome the majority in a democratic system. If you ever find yourself on the other side of majority privilege and are being preyed upon, I pray you will be practical and not martyr yourself. > [@](#): > > (I realize that in your world, paying taxes so that merchandise and people can employ roads for communication and trade along with requiring vaccinations to prevent the suffering and deaths of millions is a form of slavery, but the rest of us live in the real world and do not share your odd beliefs.) The hypotheticals that we’re being discussed before your triggering are in an earlier post if you care to read. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/204 "2019-06-13T00:08:40Z")
Didn’t I just read somewhere that leaked documents about the census question revealed the motivation was, pretty clearly stated, to be able to better jerrymander districts to political advantage. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/205 "2019-06-13T00:33:39Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The hypotheticals that we’re being discussed before your triggering are in an earlier post if you care to read. I hate to break it to you, but you are living your life with the trigger taped in the “on” position. You can’t seem to let a day go by without voicing some kind of fear that government is coming to take your freedoms and money. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/206 "2019-06-13T00:48:44Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I hate to break it to you, but you are living your life with the trigger taped in the “on” position. You can’t seem to let a day go by without voicing some kind of fear that government is coming to take your freedoms and money. I don’t fear the expected and uncontrollable, but thanks for your concern. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/207 "2019-06-13T00:55:31Z")
elbows: You sure did! That’s why Trump just invoked executive privilege in an effort to keep this information out of the congressional record. Because he’s, you know, transparent. In his own lying words. (As though the reason for the census question wasn’t obvious enough to begin with.) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/208 "2019-06-13T01:14:57Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I don’t fear the expected and uncontrollable, but thanks for your concern. I’m not concerned about you anymore than 9-11 truthers or gold bugs. You’re just occasionally amusing background noise. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/209 "2019-06-13T03:38:11Z")
Stepping back a bit: > [@tomndebb](#): > > So a person who had a homosexual orientation in previous years should simply avoid politics and make a change to their lifestyle to be happier? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes they should move to an area where the society is accepting. They will have near zero impact getting involved with politics in an area where they are experiencing problems from the state. Right, so those poor homosexuals should have simply moved to some imaginary (_circa_ 1970) land where there would have been no repression. Those uppity homosexuals should know that there will never be any changes by the authors of the DSM, there will never be any changes to laws granting them more security in society, they will certainly never be permitted to marry. They should simply shut up and/or move because their “disruptive” practices upset Will. Ah well. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/210 "2019-06-13T04:38:10Z")
> [@Taber](#): > > [Will Health and Human Services Allow Doctors to Refuse to Treat LGBTQ Patients? | Snopes.com](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hhs-allow-doctors-to-refuse-lgbtq/) > I’m not sure what current event to link, but the middle one’s the confederate flag > [Detroit chief: Nazis wanted 'Charlottesville 2.0' at Detroit gay pride event](https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2019/06/10/detroit-chief-nazis-wanted-charlottesville-no-2-detroit-gay-pride-event/1410945001/) > [@Velocity](#): > > AIUI, that bill means that physicians aren’t required to do LGBT-related elective procedures (such as sex-change surgeries,) but they can’t refuse to treat an LGBT patient for something that a non-LGBT patient would have needed. In other words, if an LGBT patient comes into the ER with a broken leg, they have to treat it since a broken leg is something everyone and anyone can get. Velocity is correct. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > After a conservative murdered Heather Heyer by running her down with his vehicle, lawmakers in North Dakota, North Carolina, Florida, Tennessee and Texas proposed bills that would make it [legal for drivers to kill protesters](https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/legislation-protects-drivers-injure-protesters/index.html) if they offered the defense “I didn’t mean to.” > > How are we supposed to feel about people who want vehicular homicide legalized for their political opponents? Mere hatred seems a bit mild. It’s not wonder you hate your opponents when you mischaracterize the statements that are right in your cite. Nothing, and I mean nothing in these proposed laws makes it “legal for drivers to kill protesters” and has nothing at all to do with the Charlottesville murder as these laws would not apply. The laws merely state, as noted in the article, that if you are illegally in the street impeding traffic, and the driver unintentionally hits you, then you may not sue the driver. It’s amazing we needed this law in the first place. The street is for traffic. If you are there illegally and someone unintentionally hits you, it’s your fault. You don’t get a pass by saying “I didn’t mean to” anymore than you would in any other circumstance. If I see the guy standing in the street who has been sleeping with my wife and I hit him with my car, there will be an investigation to see if I deliberately hit him. Neither in this, nor any other potential crime, is the suspect’s word taken as the end of the matter. When you view something so non-controversial as a license for Nazis to murder good liberal protesters, then I can understand the hate. But read the article through the CNN spin. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/211 "2019-06-13T11:07:19Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > The laws merely state, as noted in the article, that if you are illegally in the street impeding traffic, and the driver unintentionally hits you, then you may not sue the driver. It’s amazing we needed this law in the first place. The street is for traffic. If you are there illegally and someone unintentionally hits you, it’s your fault. I would disagree. Part of the privilege of driving means you are always conscious of what is in the roadway. If someone jumps out in front of you, liability is appropriate. But if someone is standing in the road and gets hit, both of you should be cited and/or charged for jaywalking and negligence, respectively. > [@](#): > > You don’t get a pass by saying “I didn’t mean to” anymore than you would in any other circumstance. If I see the guy standing in the street who has been sleeping with my wife and I hit him with my car, there will be an investigation to see if I deliberately hit him. Neither in this, nor any other potential crime, is the suspect’s word taken as the end of the matter. But… now there exists the _potential_ to take the suspect’s word as the end of the matter. If he says “I didn’t mean to” or “I didn’t see them”, the state now has the burden of determining his intent. And offenders know how what story they need to tell when questioned by police at the scene. > [@](#): > > When you view something so non-controversial as a license for Nazis to murder good liberal protesters, then I can understand the hate. But read the article through the CNN spin. I am understanding these events as responses to protests. In this climate we saw [right-wing media such as Fox and Daily Caller](https://money.cnn.com/2017/08/15/media/daily-caller-fox-news-video-car-crashing-liberal-protesters/index.html) inciting their viewers to run over crowds of protesters. What was the red-state legislative response? Not to rein in hate groups. Not to respond to issues that caused protests in the first place. They responded by making it a little safer for drivers to hurt protesters. You have to ignore a lot of context to believe there was no malice intended by these bills. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/212 "2019-06-13T11:27:00Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > After a conservative murdered Heather Heyer by running her down with his vehicle, lawmakers in North Dakota, North Carolina, Florida, Tennessee and Texas proposed bills that would make it legal for drivers to kill protesters if they offered the defense “I didn’t mean to.” > > The laws merely state, as noted in the article, that if you are illegally in the street impeding traffic, and the driver unintentionally hits you, then you may not sue the driver. It’s amazing we needed this law in the first place. The street is for traffic. If you are there illegally and someone unintentionally hits you, it’s your fault… > When you view something so non-controversial as a license for Nazis to murder good liberal protesters, then I can understand the hate. But read the article through the CNN spin. Serious question, **UltraVires** — Do you think it _coincidence_ that five states operated by the Redneck party all passed this law after Heather Heyer was murdered? I do not expect you to dare an answer, so I’ll post my follow-up question now: Are you just auditioning for some Trumpist version of _The Onion_? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/213 "2019-06-13T13:30:46Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > The administration sure is going to great lengths to not provide information behind the totally innocuous rationale for adding this question then, huh? Can you provide some reasonable explanation for why they would invoke executive privilege to keep this completely innocent proposal under wraps? The context is that \*this \*administration is telling \*this \*House to go pound sand on every matter whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/214 "2019-06-13T13:47:11Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Serious question, **UltraVires** — Do you think it _coincidence_ that five states operated by the Redneck party all passed this law after Heather Heyer was murdered? > > I do not expect you to dare an answer, so I’ll post my follow-up question now: Are you just auditioning for some Trumpist version of _The Onion_? First, “redneck” in this context is somewhat slur-ish, not withstanding we have a self identified poster with the moniker. Second, you need to dial back the personal shots. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/215 "2019-06-13T13:51:24Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Stepping back a bit:Right, so those poor homosexuals should have simply moved to some imaginary (_circa_ 1970) land where there would have been no repression. Those uppity homosexuals should know that there will never be any changes by the authors of the DSM, there will never be any changes to laws granting them more security in society, they will certainly never be permitted to marry. They should simply shut up and/or move because their “disruptive” practices upset Will. > Ah well. No the victims should have moved to escape predation, not because it offends me. Sadly many stayed and became martyrs. If they had moved and formed accepting communities, perhaps they would have changed local laws first and served as a beacon to similar oppressed individuals so that they too could escape predation. Oh shit that’s what actually happened? You don’t say! ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/216 "2019-06-13T14:01:10Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > No the victims should have moved to escape predation, not because it offends me. Sadly many stayed and became martyrs. > > If they had moved and formed accepting communities, perhaps they would have changed local laws first and served as a beacon to similar oppressed individuals so that they too could escape predation. Oh shit that’s what actually happened? You don’t say! So you can’t imagine any circumstance under which populations that are being marginalized do not have the option to just pick up and move? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/217 "2019-06-13T14:03:08Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So you can’t imagine any circumstance under which populations that are being marginalized do not have the option to just pick up and move? Yes I can imagine them they just don’t apply to the hypotheticals posited earlier in the thread for which I gave my practical advice. If you would like to conjure another hypothetical I will give practical advice on that situation as well. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/218 "2019-06-13T14:13:22Z")
No hypotheticals: a) Muslims in Yugoslavia pre ethnic cleansing b) Black slaves in America’s south c) Jews in Europe post 1933 d) Palestinians in Gaza e) American Indians f) Uyghurs in China ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/219 "2019-06-13T14:30:56Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > No hypotheticals: > a) Muslims in Yugoslavia pre ethnic cleansing > b) Black slaves in America’s south > c) Jews in Europe post 1933 > d) Palestinians in Gaza > e) American Indians > f) Uyghurs in China Ok pick one. Then tell me how political action will improve the lives of the victims of state predation in that scenario. I will give my realpolitik advice. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2019, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/220 "2019-06-13T14:35:22Z")
No. You tell us how these people can pick up and move to avoid predation. Isn’t that your solution? G’on then. Solve away. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295.md?page=12)