# On vitriol and the state of America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2019, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295 "2019-06-10T13:11:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![kitap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@kitap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitap)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/81 "2019-06-11T14:17:32Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Is Martina a 2020 Democratic candidate for president? It’s really hard to keep track of all of them. We could do worse. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/82 "2019-06-11T14:18:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’d add freedom of religion and freedom of speech to the list of “rights and freedoms” that are threatened by the political left. For example?.. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The environmental movement tries to dictate the minutiae of people’s lives: how much water their toilets and showerheads can use, which kind of lightbulbs they have to use, how many MPG their vehicle must get, what type of gas can is acceptable, etc. Perhaps calling those things “rights” would be overwrought, but there’s certainly less freedom to be had when environmentalists get their way. …How much pollutants industries can release into the environment. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/83 "2019-06-11T14:35:56Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’d add freedom of religion and freedom of speech to the list of “rights and freedoms” that are threatened by the political left. I contribute yearly to the [American Civil Liberties Union](https://www.aclu.org/) as well as the [Freedom From Religion Foundation](https://ffrf.org/). I feel threatened far more from the right than the left! ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/84 "2019-06-11T15:15:46Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The environmental movement tries to dictate the minutiae of people’s lives: how much water their toilets and showerheads can use, which kind of lightbulbs they have to use, how many MPG their vehicle must get, what type of gas can is acceptable, etc. Perhaps calling those things “rights” would be overwrought, but there’s certainly less freedom to be had when environmentalists get their way. I’m sure you’d like to pay the actual cost of the water, gasoline, and electricity you use instead of paying a cut rate that comes from all those evil taxes you hate. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/85 "2019-06-11T15:22:55Z")
I’m sure **HurricaneDitka** can answer the question himself. That said, while we wait and based on present behaviors, I would guess that Republicans would threaten freedom of religion by: - Imposing bans on immigrants based on religion, including deportations. - State endorsement of Christianity - Mandatory prayer in public schools - (Christian) religious beliefs permitted to supersede laws, statutes and regulations - (Christian) religious beliefs used as accepted legal basis for discrimination against non-heterosexuals, for draconian restrictions on areas related to women’s health and pregnancy, and for changes to employment conditions. - General permission to discriminate against non-Christians in ways not already covered by the above. [I am of course ignoring the tiny minority who also want the Jews “out”] Conversely, as far as I can tell, Democrats would threaten freedom of religion by: - Not letting the Republicans do any of that. That’s about it. But I am open to alternative views. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/86 "2019-06-11T15:28:03Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’m sure **HurricaneDitka** can answer the question himself. … You said you were “genuinely curious”. Your subsequent post calls that into question and makes it appear that you were more likely just searching for an opportunity to post something snarky and vitriolic. You’re probably a smart guy. I’m confident you can find at least a few of the actual ways conservatives feel their freedom of religion is threatened by the Left if you want to. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/87 "2019-06-11T15:45:31Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You said you were “genuinely curious”. Your subsequent post calls that into question and makes it appear that you were more likely just searching for an opportunity to post something snarky and vitriolic. I am genuinely curious. But your response was suspiciously vague and lacking in any detail whatsoever, and your subsequent post calls into question whether your first actually had any substance behind it. In fact, it makes it appear that you were more likely just searching for an opportunity to post something snarky and vitriolic. Something like this: > [@](#): > > You’re probably a smart guy. I’m confident you can find at least a few of the actual ways conservatives feel their freedom of religion is threatened by the Left if you want to. I could, but I asked you, or indeed any other Republican who would like to chime in. I guess my initial assumption that you didn’t have anything to support your first answer was correct. Perhaps someone else will respond in better faith. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/88 "2019-06-11T16:01:50Z")
He could be thinking of something like the Hobby Lobby case. Or maybe Jehovah Witnesses not being allowed to refuse blood transfusions for their children. That makes me wonder: does the Hobby Lobby decision allow a Jehovah’s Witness owned company to refuse covering medical expenses that include blood transfusions? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/89 "2019-06-11T16:08:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I understand politics is about compromise on so many things, but I haven’t figured out how someone who truly values women, or truly thinks racism and bigotry are abominable, can support and make excuses for Trump. 1. Women: Just because he is a womanizing heel in his personal life does not mean that translates into public issues. See Bill Clinton. 2. Racism and bigotry. I’ve never understood this charge leveled at Trump. One can be against illegal immigration and support enforcing these laws without be bigoted. We’ve been through this in other threads. I find it disturbing that your side has descended into outright hatred of the other side because of political differences. But it is not political differences you say, it is about hatred of gays and other minorities. Lemme ask you this: you voted for Obama in 2008 when he expressed an opposition to same sex marriage. Why the bigotry? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/90 "2019-06-11T16:08:17Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > He could be thinking of something like the Hobby Lobby case. Or maybe Jehovah Witnesses not being allowed to refuse blood transfusions for their children. > > That makes me wonder: does the Hobby Lobby decision allow a Jehovah’s Witness owned company to refuse covering medical expenses that include blood transfusions? That’s it. He’s talking about all the ways the evil left prevents religiluos people from being free to force the rest of us to practice their religion. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/91 "2019-06-11T16:09:18Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > That’s it. He’s talking about all the ways the evil left prevents religiluos people from being free to force the rest of us to practice their religion. How is a third party refusing to give you something forcing you to practice their religion? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/92 "2019-06-11T16:16:53Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > …2) Racism and bigotry. I’ve never understood this charge leveled at Trump. One can be against illegal immigration and support enforcing these laws without be bigoted. We’ve been through this in other threads. > … “A total and complete ban on all Muslims from entering the country…” _Trump fans roar with approval_ ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/93 "2019-06-11T16:23:39Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > 1. Women: Just because he is a womanizing heel in his personal life does not mean that translates into public issues. See Bill Clinton. I don’t care if he womanizes – I care that he bragged, on multiple occasions, of violating the consent of women (along with multiple credible accusations of sexual assault). I get that millions of Americans don’t think this is a particularly big deal, but it still bothers the hell out of me. > [@](#): > > 1. Racism and bigotry. I’ve never understood this charge leveled at Trump. One can be against illegal immigration and support enforcing these laws without be bigoted. We’ve been through this in other threads. Yes we have. It’s not about his opposition to illegal immigration. > [@](#): > > I find it disturbing that your side has descended into outright hatred of the other side because of political differences. I find the hatred and vitriol (which is obviously not unique to one side) disturbing as well, even as I occasionally have these feelings personally. That’s what this thread is about. Perhaps you never have these feelings – if so, good for you. Let me ask you this – if you could hypothesize that you suddenly felt about Trump exactly the same way that I do, how would you feel about his supporters? Would you never have any negative feelings about them – people who make excuses for sexual assault and degradation of women; and who make excuses for overt racism and white supremacism? > [@](#): > > But it is not political differences you say, it is about hatred of gays and other minorities. Lemme ask you this: you voted for Obama in 2008 when he expressed an opposition to same sex marriage. Why the bigotry? Obama expressed this bigoted position out of political expediency – it’s pretty clear now that he never believed it, but took that position for political reasons. Which is no excuse at all (in a way, it’s even worse, because he should have known better). I voted for Obama because the alternative was far, far worse, on this and almost every other issue. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/94 "2019-06-11T16:31:19Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > How is a third party refusing to give you something forcing you to practice their religion? It’s not a gift. Employer provided health insurance is mandated compensation. This reminds me of another thing I get pissed off about. Certain segments\* of the political landscape acting like jobs, wages and benefits are “gifts”, given to the unwashed masses by their well-heeled job-creating betters. It’s not a gift, it’s a business transaction, trading productive, profitable labor for compensation. So, yeah, a third party refusing to provide me with the legally mandated compensation for my labor because their religion “forbids” something IS forcing me to be compliant with their religious practices. \*Give you one guess which segments! ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/95 "2019-06-11T16:54:08Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > It’s not a gift. Employer provided health insurance is mandated compensation. > > This reminds me of another thing I get pissed off about. Certain segments\* of the political landscape acting like jobs, wages and benefits are “gifts”, given to the unwashed masses by their well-heeled job-creating betters. It’s not a gift, it’s a business transaction, trading productive, profitable labor for compensation. > > So, yeah, a third party refusing to provide me with the legally mandated compensation for my labor because their religion “forbids” something IS forcing me to be compliant with their religious practices. > > \*Give you one guess which segments! It’s not a gift. I am saying that they are not giving you (as in handing) to you exactly what you want. It is not enough that they pay you in currency with which to buy what you want. You demand that they directly give (as in hand) you the very thing that their religion forbids. This in no way forces you to be compliant with their religious practices. I can work for a Catholic Church and use my wages to pay for liquor, abortions, gamble with it, or donate it to a Muslim charity. I In no way does my employer force me to comply with their own religious beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/96 "2019-06-11T17:16:48Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Employer provided health insurance is mandated compensation. Cite for this statement, please. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/97 "2019-06-11T17:21:14Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Cite for this statement, please. Please explain what problems you have with the statement. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/98 "2019-06-11T17:24:55Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > How is a third party refusing to give you something forcing you to practice their religion? > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > It’s not a gift. Employer provided health insurance is mandated compensation. > > This reminds me of another thing I get pissed off about. Certain segments\* of the political landscape acting like jobs, wages and benefits are “gifts”, given to the unwashed masses by their well-heeled job-creating betters. It’s not a gift, it’s a business transaction, trading productive, profitable labor for compensation. > > So, yeah, a third party refusing to provide me with the legally mandated compensation for my labor because their religion “forbids” something IS forcing me to be compliant with their religious practices. > > \*Give you one guess which segments! In addition, David Green ended up getting an exemption due to the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, championed by the religion hating left wingers Chuck Schumer and Ted Kennedy. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/99 "2019-06-11T17:29:01Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > It’s not a gift. I am saying that they are not giving you (as in handing) to you exactly what you want. It is not enough that they pay you in currency with which to buy what you want. You demand that they directly give (as in hand) you the very thing that their religion forbids. They’re not “handing” women birth control anymore than the Catholic Church is “handing” you bottles of liquor. Hobby Lobby is wiring a third party a sum of money to cover a vast number of their employees. Their employees, in turn, choose to use the third party to arrange payments to a fourth party to obtain the drugs that a fifth party prescribed to them. The Catholic Church OTOH, is depositing money into your account at the bank that you can access that very day direct from the VIP room of your local strip club. All of it is fungible resource that employees can choose to use or not use in many different ways. But, because they CAN restrict how you spend health care money, they WILL, because it pleases them to make other people follow their religion’s rules. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/100 "2019-06-11T17:39:13Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > 1. Racism and bigotry. I’ve never understood this charge leveled at Trump. One can be against illegal immigration and support enforcing these laws without be bigoted. We’ve been through this in other threads. Yes we have. The immigration point has been addressed but since you mentioned “racism”, were you unaware of Trump’s overtly racist past and reputation? Did you not notice that during the campaign Trump’s references to black people were almost entirely in the context of urban crime? Did you overlook Trump’s repeated personal dissemination of material from white nationalist/supremacist sources? In fact, have you considered at all that the reason Trump gets accused of racism might be due not to political differences but rather to his actual racist behaviour and support of others’ racism? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295.md?page=6)