# On vitriol and the state of America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2019, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295 "2019-06-10T13:11:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/101 "2019-06-11T17:40:46Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Please explain what problems you have with the statement. I think the problem is that employers are not legally mandated to provide health insurance. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/102 "2019-06-11T17:40:48Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Please explain what problems you have with the statement. Which law or regulation mandates employer provided health insurance? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/103 "2019-06-11T17:40:51Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > They’re not “handing” women birth control anymore than the Catholic Church is “handing” you bottles of liquor. > > Hobby Lobby is wiring a third party a sum of money to cover a vast number of their employees. Their employees, in turn, choose to use the third party to arrange payments to a fourth party to obtain the drugs that a fifth party prescribed to them. > > The Catholic Church OTOH, is depositing money into your account at the bank that you can access that very day direct from the VIP room of your local strip club. > > All of it is fungible resource that employees can choose to use or not use in many different ways. But, because they CAN restrict how you spend health care money, they WILL, because it pleases them to make other people follow their religion’s rules. That’s a reasonable defense but your conclusion isn’t entirely fair, imho. Is it really so much of a stretch for you to imagine that paying for a broad range of services that includes abortion would make the payer may feel complicit with any abortions that happen? But on the other hand, Ultravirus, would you feel comfortable with an employer who refused insurance that covered blood transfusions on religious grounds? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/104 "2019-06-11T17:49:03Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Which law or regulation mandates employer provided health insurance? That can’t be it. You know he’s talking about the ACA. So take a breath and say what you actually mean rather than ask a lame rhetorical question that will require 6 back and forths before getting to a point. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/105 "2019-06-11T17:57:36Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > That can’t be it. You know he’s talking about the ACA. Please cite the provision of the ACA that mandates that employers must provide health insurance. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/106 "2019-06-11T18:01:49Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > “A total and complete ban on all Muslims from entering the country…” > _Trump fans roar with approval_ Not the same thing that he’s saying at all. For example, I can say that I oppose illegal immigration because it often skirts the legally mandated pay scales and worker protections, depressing wages on the low end, and thereby artifically driving down the wages of OUR poor, as well as putting an extra burden on our already dysfunctional public healthcare system. Nothing bigoted there. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/107 "2019-06-11T18:02:11Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Is it really so much of a stretch for you to imagine that paying for a broad range of services that includes abortion would make the payer may feel complicit with any abortions that happen? They provide compensation that allows a sinful employee to buy up a six pack of abortions. Is Hobby Lobby really less complicit because it the transaction was made through compensation X rather than compensation Y? Thank Jesus that the abortions were paid out of account 700100 (wages&salaries) rather than 700400 (fringes)! To think we could have been somehow responsible for them! Do I need to respect this tortured logic? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/108 "2019-06-11T18:08:09Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Please cite the provision of the ACA that mandates that employers must provide health insurance. Before I do, could you explain why you don’t just make your point? It’s obvious to all that you aren’t asking for clarification, you disagree that health insurance is mandated employment compensation. So just say that. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/109 "2019-06-11T18:09:14Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Please cite the provision of the ACA that mandates that employers must provide health insurance. Let’s just say it’s whatever provision Hobby Lobby sued about. I presume that law mandated that they do _something_ and they didn’t want to do whatever that _something_ was. I’m pretty sure that something had to do with health care and women being sinful. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/110 "2019-06-11T18:13:15Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > They provide compensation that allows a sinful employee to buy up a six pack of abortions. Is Hobby Lobby really less complicit because it the transaction was made through compensation X rather than compensation Y? > > Thank Jesus that the abortions were paid out of account 700100 (wages&salaries) rather than 700400 (fringes)! To think we could have been somehow responsible for them! > > Do I need to respect this tortured logic? It’s not tortured logic. You can’t control everything that an employee does with their money but you can refuse to pay into a fund that lists abortion as a completely neutral medical cost. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/111 "2019-06-11T18:20:00Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It’s obvious to all that you aren’t asking for clarification, you disagree that health insurance is mandated employment compensation. hat. Employer provided health insurance is a form of compensation. However, it’s not mandated. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/112 "2019-06-11T18:39:15Z")
To elaborate on what I said earlier, what’s really changed is that people aren’t letting conservative bigots hide behind a cloud of ‘respectability’ and are actually holding them responsible for the vitriol and violence they’ve been spewing for years instead of allowing them to cover it with a fig leaf of ‘difference of opinion’. People are saying ‘you want to hurt people? fine, I will treat you as someone who’s trying to hurt people’. Also, I find it fascinating that the people complaining about ‘vitriol’ and the ‘lack of civility’ don’t consider people openly endorsing the quotes I included below my response to WillFarnaby to be engaging in any kind of vitriol. Apparently ‘I don’t want to hang out with racist/murdering/etc scum like that’ is a step to far, but literally letting someone bleed out or claiming that the natural state of black people is to be subjugated to the “superior race” is polite and reasonable. It appears that the need for politeness is really the need to bow to a certain demographic, and doesn’t apply equally. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > none of those things are proactive measures to kill people. I don’t dispute that people wear Nazi symbols for example. Having someone declare it doesn’t make it so, especially when they’re known for using weird weird Libertarian definitions to justift things. Whether the phrase ‘taking proactive measures to kill people’ in Libertarianese applies is irrelevant to me. Here are some simple examples of what I mean, none of this is subtle or nice. On the medical discrimination protections Republicans are actively promoting and protecting: > [@https://twitter.com/samdylanfinch/status/1131998009573531648](#): > > I remember when I lived in Michigan and a trans woman that I knew had to call 911, because a serious wound she had (from an unrelated medical condition) started hemorrhaging overnight. One of the EMTs went upstairs to her room, and when that EMT realized she was transgender, was visibly disgusted and left the room. Her mom overheard the EMT mocking her as he spoke to the other EMT, referring to her as an "it."But the worst part of it was that, when it was decided that she needed to go to the hospital, they made her walk down the stairs herself without helping her. She was hemorrhaging blood from a leg wound. They stood impatiently and just watched her struggle. > > That’s not even the worst story that I know of. A transgender woman in DC named Tyra Hunter was seriously injured in a car accident, and ambulance workers, upon realizing she was trans, outright refused to treat her. They mocked her. She later DIED from those wounds. On whether Nazi flags have anything to do with killing people: > [@Adolf Hitler](#): > > “If I am ever really in power, the destruction of the Jews will be my first and most important job. As soon as I have power, I shall have gallows after gallows erected, for example, in Munich on the Marienplatz-as many of them as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be hanged one after another, and they will stay hanging until they stink. They will stay hanging as long as hygienically possible. As soon as they are untied, then the next group will follow and that will continue until the last Jew in Munich is exterminated. Exactly the same procedure will be followed in other cities until Germany is cleansed of the last Jew!” On the Confederate flag (Which is not about murder but enslavement, as I said) > [@Confederate Vice President Alexander H. Stephens](#): > > Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/113 "2019-06-11T18:59:00Z")
IMHO, one reason for the vitriol is because of the roles in which both sides envision themselves. Liberals frequently envision themselves in the role of the “educator,” and other people in the role of the “apologizer.” In other words, liberals picture themselves educating people into becoming more enlightened and progressive, and the un-educated people around them are supposed to dutifully nod, be corrected, apologize for their misdeeds, and become…liberal. This attitude naturally causes tremendous resentment and a feeling of being patronized. Conservatives envision themselves as defenders of what is good, old and true, against…a horde of liberals and other “enemies” who would eat out the foundations of America and society like termites eating away at foundational wood. This, too, causes tremendous irritation and anger among those non-conservatives who are being portrayed as evil and enemies of America. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/114 "2019-06-11T18:59:45Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > To elaborate on what I said earlier, what’s really changed is that people aren’t letting conservative bigots hide behind a cloud of ‘respectability’ and are actually holding them responsible for the vitriol and violence they’ve been spewing for years instead of allowing them to cover it with a fig leaf of ‘difference of opinion’. People are saying ‘you want to hurt people? fine, I will treat you as someone who’s trying to hurt people’. > > Also, I find it fascinating that the people complaining about ‘vitriol’ and the ‘lack of civility’ don’t consider people openly endorsing the quotes I included below my response to WillFarnaby to be engaging in any kind of vitriol. Apparently ‘I don’t want to hang out with racist/murdering/etc scum like that’ is a step to far, but literally letting someone bleed out or claiming that the natural state of black people is to be subjugated to the “superior race” is polite and reasonable. It appears that the need for politeness is really the need to bow to a certain demographic, and doesn’t apply equally. > > Having someone declare it doesn’t make it so, especially when they’re known for using weird weird Libertarian definitions to justift things. Whether the phrase ‘taking proactive measures to kill people’ in Libertarianese applies is irrelevant to me. Here are some simple examples of what I mean, none of this is subtle or nice. > > On the medical discrimination protections Republicans are actively promoting and protecting: > On whether Nazi flags have anything to do with killing people: > On the Confederate flag (Which is not about murder but enslavement, as I said) Not helping someone is not the same as killing someone? Dispute? I think I will end this conversation quickly for your sake. Is a modern communist an advocate for political murder? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/115 "2019-06-11T19:12:15Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > IMHO, one reason for the vitriol is because of the roles in which both sides envision themselves. > > Liberals frequently envision themselves in the role of the “educator,” and other people in the role of the “apologizer.” In other words, liberals picture themselves educating people into becoming more enlightened and progressive, and the un-educated people around them are supposed to dutifully nod, be corrected, apologize for their misdeeds, and become…liberal. This attitude naturally causes tremendous resentment and a feeling of being patronized. > > Conservatives envision themselves as defenders of what is good, old and true, against…a horde of liberals and other “enemies” who would eat out the foundations of America and society like termites eating away at foundational wood. This, too, causes tremendous irritation and anger among those non-conservatives who are being portrayed as evil and enemies of America. You know, I have been reading your thoughtful posts for some time now and have come to the only logical conclusion I can. You and I could totally be friends. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/116 "2019-06-11T19:43:34Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > IMHO, one reason for the vitriol is because of the roles in which both sides envision themselves. > > Liberals frequently envision themselves in the role of the “educator,” and other people in the role of the “apologizer.” In other words, liberals picture themselves educating people into becoming more enlightened and progressive, and the un-educated people around them are supposed to dutifully nod, be corrected, apologize for their misdeeds, and become…liberal. This attitude naturally causes tremendous resentment and a feeling of being patronized. > > Conservatives envision themselves as defenders of what is good, old and true, against…a horde of liberals and other “enemies” who would eat out the foundations of America and society like termites eating away at foundational wood. This, too, causes tremendous irritation and anger among those non-conservatives who are being portrayed as evil and enemies of America. I agree with this, but why can’t we respect our differences outside of the political arena. My brother in law is about as liberal as they come and we get along great. Yes, we needle each other whenever we get together. If he is at my house and brings Canadian beer I tell him that I don’t want socialist beer in my house and that he needs to bring good American beer. When he sees a black guy in my neighborhood he tells me that the local Re-Elect Trump committee must have missed that guy and I should probably bring it up at the next meeting to get rid of him. There is no reason you cannot disagree yet still be friendly. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/117 "2019-06-11T19:48:34Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I agree with this, but why can’t we respect our differences outside of the political arena. > > My brother in law is about as liberal as they come and we get along great. Yes, we needle each other whenever we get together. If he is at my house and brings Canadian beer I tell him that I don’t want socialist beer in my house and that he needs to bring good American beer. When he sees a black guy in my neighborhood he tells me that the local Re-Elect Trump committee must have missed that guy and I should probably bring it up at the next meeting to get rid of him. > > There is no reason you cannot disagree yet still be friendly. This is easy to say, but politics is life or death, or close, for some folks. It’s hard to be friendly with someone whose policies could result in harm or death to yourself or someone you love. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/118 "2019-06-11T19:55:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is easy to say, but politics is life or death, or close, for some folks. It’s hard to be friendly with someone whose policies could result in harm or death to yourself or someone you love. Which of Trump’s policies could result in harm or death to you or someone you love? And I mean the policies, not what some third party idiot does in misguided reverence to what he believes is the policy. If we go down that road, then every policy could cause harm or death. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/119 "2019-06-11T19:57:58Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > IMHO, one reason for the vitriol is because of the roles in which both sides envision themselves. > > Liberals frequently envision themselves in the role of the “educator,” and other people in the role of the “apologizer.” In other words, liberals picture themselves educating people into becoming more enlightened and progressive, and the un-educated people around them are supposed to dutifully nod, be corrected, apologize for their misdeeds, and become…liberal. This attitude naturally causes tremendous resentment and a feeling of being patronized. > > Conservatives envision themselves as defenders of what is good, old and true, against…a horde of liberals and other “enemies” who would eat out the foundations of America and society like termites eating away at foundational wood. This, too, causes tremendous irritation and anger among those non-conservatives who are being portrayed as evil and enemies of America. I think there’s a lot of truth to this. There are obviously times and areas where conservatives view themselves as “educators” (firearms is one area that comes to mind readily) and liberals view their political opponents as evil and enemies of America (see all the talk about President Trump and his supporters being treasonous / traitors), but at a high level, I think you’ve got the gist of it mostly right. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2019, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295/120 "2019-06-11T19:58:54Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > IMHO, one reason for the vitriol is because of the roles in which both sides envision themselves. [snipped in the interest of brevity] This is certainly part of it. Another part is that some people mentally exclude the middle. For some liberals if you’re not on board with everything Bernie, Warren, and AOC have to say you might as well be a White Nationalist. For some conservatives if you don’t own a MAGA hat you might as well be calling for the abolition of private property. > [@UltraVires](#): > > My brother in law is about as liberal as they come and we get along great. Yes, we needle each other whenever we get together. If he is at my house and brings Canadian beer I tell him that I don’t want socialist beer in my house and that he needs to bring good American beer. When he sees a black guy in my neighborhood he tells me that the local Re-Elect Trump committee must have missed that guy and I should probably bring it up at the next meeting to get rid of him. > > There is no reason you cannot disagree yet still be friendly. There is something to be said for knowing someone. You know your brother-in-law, you know he’s not a bad person, he’s not just a face on TV or faceless internet person. Social media allows us to talk with people we don’t really know, which is great for some things, but makes it really easy to misunderstand and dehumanize. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/on-vitriol-and-the-state-of-america/835295.md?page=7)