On what basis should social policy be debated?

I don’t think they are sufficient on their own. Since the start of the industrial revolution, new factors have been introduced into modern society at an increasingly rapid rate; the less static a society is, the more likely it becomes that any “commonality of preference” is based on out of date assumptions and that “historical effects” may not hold true for the same policies.

In another thread not long ago, I described the “liberal” philosophy as one which requires constant questioning and examination of public policy. I wish now that I had qualified that with a description of the process of evaluation that I provided above. Conditions always change, either through existing policies or through the introduction of new variables. This means that social policy must always be based not only on a common apprehension of reality but on scientific examination of empirical fact as well.

xenophon41:

Let me clarify a little. First, I’m saying that agreement with observable reality is certainly necessary and I assumed it in my statement. I also mean to exclude purely scientific policy; I’m referring only to questions of value.

My more specific hypothesis is:

Agreement with observed fact together with one of commonality of preference or historical effects form the only necessary and sufficient basis for rationally evaluting matters of social value.

My challenge continues acording to the emendation, and my hypothesis will fall to a single counter-example.

[Emily Litella voice]Oh. That’s very different.

(Since I’m neither inclined nor likely to come up with a counter-example…)
Never mind.[/ELv]

Let me add a little more rigor to my thesis (and bump this thread while we’re at it).

We are considering the metaphysics of debate on social value.

Such debate falls within the realm of logic. To do so, constructions must follow the rules of propositional calculus. Additional, the set of axioms (whether individual or by schema) we use to generate constructions must not lead to internal contradiction. If we find we can construct a contradiction, we must add, remove or change an axiom to prevent that construction.

Additionally, the aethethic guidelines of simplicity and clarity apply. If two axiom sets provide different conclusions to the same proposition, we should give more weight to the simpler set and the set with fewer ad hoc axioms.

Debate on social value also must accept the restrictions of empricial science. Any theory of value which contradicts ordinary objective experience, either in its assumptions or its predictions, must be held as false. Note that such contradiction does not necessarily invalidate each part of the theory; the theory may be amended to remove the contradiction.

The above restrictions are necessary, but are not sufficient. It is still possible to formulate two theories of value that each fulfill the above conditions but seem to contradict one another. We cannot tolerate such a contradiction, especially in the matter of law; as a single society, we have one law based on one set of values.

To determine whether a particular value should fall in the realm of law, and what that law should specify, we need to add a primary factual basis: a set of facts that has immediate relevance to theories in this domain.

We could accept as primary fact the meaning of the text of a specific body of religion or philosophy. However, in almost all industrialized Western countries, we have specifically excluded considering the meaning of a particular religious or secular text factually relevant to debate on social value. In other words, a contradiction between the meaning of the text of the Christian Bible (for instance) and a particular value is specifically held irrelevant to the domain of secular social value.

Such a claim of irrelevancy does not itself contradict the strictures of emprical science. An empirical claim that the physical text does not exist would be in obvious error; the meaning of the text, however, itself interpretive and (in a secular sense) conditional, need not be considered a primary fact of observation.

(1) I submit that the existence of individual preference and the commonality of such preferences form a body of objectively determinable fact using which we can test theories of value in an empirical manner.

(2) I also submit that the historical or scientifically predictable consequences of the implementation of a policy based on social value also form a body of objectively determinable fact.

(3) While by definition a logical and rational individual cannot hold mutually contradictory preferences, it is certainly possible for an individual or group to hold a preference in contradiction to anothers’. I submit that we can formulate a decision procedure to use all the individuals’ relative weights to consistently either determine the dominant preference or exclude both preferences from the realm of objectively determinable value.

(4) I submit that all useful debate about social value in a secular society falls withing one of the three previous stipulations: establishing relative preference, making scientific preditions about the consequences of a policy based on those preferences, and formulating a decision procedure to weigh values in conflict.

The third stipulation is obviously speculative and most open to challenge. One, two and fource, because of their precise formulation, will fall to a single counterexample.

I am disappointed that Jodi and UncleBeer, having heavily criticized my thesis in other threads, have so far chosen not to comment when I have exposed my propositions to direct debate without the necessity of hijacking a topical thread.

  1. what do you mean by “commonality of such preferences”? How do you determine preferences, short of asking every person to fill out an exhaustive questionaire? Fact is not necessarily the same as determinable fact.

  2. If I prefer cream cakes to doughnuts. What are the scientifically predictable consequences of this simple preference? I prefer to not live in a world where people are killed. What are the scientifically predictable consequences of this preference?

  3. From what I remember of my propositional logic, this doesn’t follow. Two groups can have contradictory belief structures that are internally consistent (as you said) but individual propostions aren’t necessarily partially ordered. There is no way to say that one belief is superior to any other.

Dammit, I can’t remember the language I need for this argument. I’ll have to go and look up my logic books again.

  1. Whilst I can’t argue with this, I do think that (1) and (2) are impractical and likely to remain so until we have incredibly advanced psychic computers and (3) is dodgy at best.

And no doubt Libertarian will show up to remind us all that the logic epistimology is tautologous and no better than the religious epistimology for formulating decisions anyway.

regards,

pan

Commonality of preference can be determined by a poll or vote, where a particular preference seems relevant to the debate on a specific value. I don’t argue that the poll is decisive but that it forms a factual basis we can agree on to act as a starting point for the process of reason.

If you prefer cream cakes to doughnuts, I would argue science predicts there are no relevant consequences to a matter of value. I doubt you would even bother to sincerely argue otherwise.

I don’t understand this paragraph. Please explain?

(3) is indeed dodgy. Suggestions? Ideas? Alternatives?

No doubt. All epistimology rests on a belief in an inerrant source. However the only source I know of that has a chance of gathering widespread agreement as to its text and meaning is the body of primary observations of sense data.

If we want a theory of value based on the Bible, the Bible then becomes the inerrant source. If we want a theory of value based on scientific empiricism, we need to find relevant primary observations. We have chosen as a culture and nation to base our system of values and laws on a scientific, emprical basis; rather, we have specifically excluded any particular religion as a factual basis (via the First Amendment). My desire to find a real basis in fact is in accordance with that choice.