# Once again, a pitting of our local pseudo-scientific racialists **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 5, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184 "2013-01-05T19:21:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/101 "2013-01-06T14:57:47Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > FWIW iiandyiii is on my ignore list because of his past dishonesty. Please, serenade us with my supposed (hint- nonexistent) dishonesty. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/102 "2013-01-06T14:59:00Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Do you truly believe otherwise? That black people are just as smart as whites and Asians genetically, and they just haven’t had the right environment to apply their natural intelligence? Nobody believes that shit deep down, Agree. Pretty much nobody seriously expects that the latest Liberal Social Program to Close the Gap will actually work. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/103 "2013-01-06T15:00:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > To believe in the genetic explanation, I would have to believe this: that it’s just a coincidence that the poorest and lowest-scoring large ethnic group in America just happens to be the one that was the most brutally treated over the past several centuries- I would have to believe believe that there is no causal link between these two things. I would have to believe that it’s just blind “luck” that the “dumbest” American ethnic group (according to you) is the one that is descended from the most brutally treated- and would have to believe there is no causal link here. I would have to believe that centuries of terrible treatment, physically, psychologically, and economically, do not continue to have effects on our media, culture, and the physical, psychological, and economic well being of these past victims’ descendants. > > That’s quite a coincidence to believe in, with no evidence. I’m not prepared to believe such a coincidence without strong evidence for it- and there’s no genetic evidence for it at all. What is the reason this debate needs to be in the pit? What you would have to believe is that the less capable populations would end up being on the low end of the SES pole in the first place, and that the less capable would be the conquered and not the conqueror over the long run. Within african population lines themselves, this is so. Under Cetawayo, the Zulus, for example, conquered a good bit of what became part of Zululand. The Incas conquered a good bit of their chunk of the world. Sometimes this is blind luck. Someone gave you guns; you carry new germs; you were first to the discovery of steel. Sometimes it’s a handful of really smart guys. Cetawayo not only organized an otherwise somewhat disjointed people (or at least better organized them after Chako’s original effort); he outwitted the British on more than one occasion. Sometimes it’s political circumstance. But, over the long haul and over a variety of circumstances and politics, when a given group always ends up on the short end of the stick for a given outcome, I’d argue it’s more likely than not that there is a fundamental difference. I just don’t see the brutality in the Swedish treatment of black immigrants. I’d argue that such an explanation is even more likely if the same groups end up on the long end of the stick for other endeavors. I don’t see centuries of brutality hampering blacks for NBA success…just the successes you want to pick and choose for. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/104 "2013-01-06T15:01:05Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Agree. Pretty much nobody seriously expects that the latest Liberal Social Program to Close the Gap will actually work. I just love how you “ignore” me by continuing to post in my thread. Your ignorance is truly special, in more ways then one. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/105 "2013-01-06T15:02:26Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > What is the reason this debate needs to be in the pit? It doesn’t- I answered your post in the GD thread. Feel free to take the debate back there. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/106 "2013-01-06T15:03:01Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > The point of this pitting is not because the pittees feel black people are intellectually inferior for whatever reason; it’s because they feel black people are intellectually inferior because they’re black people. FWIW, my position is that the observed racial gap in intelligence is due in large part to genetics. Which explains why the huge expenditure of time, money, and energy to “close the gap” has not succeeded. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/107 "2013-01-06T15:08:44Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > There’s no such thing as ‘black’ people. Unless of course a Leftist notices that “black people” did worse on a college admissions test or a firefighter promotion test or something like that. Then they can scream about discrimination. > [@](#): > > That’s the racist’s game, draw rational people into their warped way of thinking and make the arguments about the non-existent races they claim to exist. No, it’s the Leftists’ game to obsess over racial disparities and then scream “racist!” when anyone points out that those disparities are likely (in large part) the result of genetic differences. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/108 "2013-01-06T15:14:44Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > FWIW, my position is that the observed racial gap in intelligence is due in large part to genetics. Your position has no supporting evidence. > [@brazil84](#): > > No, it’s the Leftists’ game to obsess over racial disparities and then scream “racist!” when anyone points out that those disparities are likely (in large part) the result of genetic differences. As opposed to obsessing over “Leftists” and their conspiracies? It’s a good thing us “Lefties” have gotten so many conservatives, like Frank Sweet and Ron Unz to write studies and arguments in our favor. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/109 "2013-01-06T15:15:29Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > It’s language and dialect, friend, not genes. Ahhh, liberal excuse number 1511 for black underachievement. What is your evidence for this hypothesis? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/110 "2013-01-06T15:17:34Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Ahhh, liberal excuse number 1511 for black underachievement. What is your evidence for this hypothesis? It’s ironic hearing someone who supports a hypothesis with no evidence ask for evidence for someone else’s hypothesis. It’s also ironic to continue to post in a thread started by someone that you (are pretending to) ignore. **brazil84** - a truly special kind of ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/111 "2013-01-06T15:22:03Z")
I’m all for a good mocking. _points and laughs_ Hahahahah. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/112 "2013-01-06T15:22:50Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > But to be fair, that also applies to the many other explanations put forward as well: it’s racism, it’s culture, it’s poverty, it’s Ebonics, it’s biased tests, it’s not eating breakfast. All simple answers and none of them having anything to back them up. Agree, these proposed explanations never stand up to scrutiny. Often there have been many attempts in the past to “close the gap” by equalizing school funding or whatever. There are frequently other average or high-achieving groups who have suffered the same disadvantage which is hypothesized as the explanation for black under-performance. And there are usually plenty of other low achieving blacks who have not suffered from this disadvantage which supposedly accounts for their poor performance. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/113 "2013-01-06T15:25:43Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > There are frequently other average or high-achieving groups who have suffered the same disadvantage which is hypothesized as the explanation for black under-performance. There are other groups in America whose ancestors were enslaved for centuries, and then suffered institutionalized, government-supported repression for a hundred years up until just a few decades ago? Do tell. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/114 "2013-01-06T15:32:24Z")
> [@](#): > > TEN THINGS EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW ABOUT RACE > > Our eyes tell us that people look different. No one has trouble distinguishing a Czech from a Chinese. But what do those differences mean? Are they biological? Has race always been with us? How does race affect people today? > > There’s less - and more - to race than meets the eye: > > 1. Race is a modern idea. Ancient societies, like the Greeks, did not divide people according to physical distinctions, but according to religion, status, class, even language. The English language didn’t even have the word ‘race’ until it turns up in 1508 in a poem by William Dunbar referring to a line of kings. > > 2. Race has no genetic basis. Not one characteristic, trait or even gene distinguishes all the members of one so-called race from all the members of another so-called race. > > 3. Human subspecies don’t exist. Unlike many animals, modern humans simply haven’t been around long enough or isolated enough to evolve into separate subspecies or races. Despite surface appearances, we are one of the most similar of all species. > > 4. Skin color really is only skin deep. Most traits are inherited independently from one another. The genes influencing skin color have nothing to do with the genes influencing hair form, eye shape, blood type, musical talent, athletic ability or forms of intelligence. Knowing someone’s skin color doesn’t necessarily tell you anything else about him or her. And yet a physical anthropologist can look at a modern skeleton and measure the relative length of bones and make an educated assumption about the region of the world that the deceased’s ancestors are from. We know that height, hair color and texture, eye color and shape, skin color, type of ear wax, blood type, and other physical features vary among groups depending on where their ancestors are from. But for some reason there can not possibly be any physical difference that would affect the achievement gap. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/115 "2013-01-06T15:36:09Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > But for some reason there can not possibly be any physical difference that would affect the achievement gap. There could be. But why should anyone believe it with no evidence for it? There’s no genetic evidence. All they (supporters of the “genetic explanation”) have is evidence of disparate outcomes, _which no one denies_. The fact that disparate outcomes exist say nothing about _why_ they exist, and there’s no genetic evidence for the genetic explanation. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/116 "2013-01-06T15:46:31Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Occam’s Razor. It’s a lot more believable that all of these things are evidence of a single phenomenon - like racism - rather than a host of genetic traits. I disagree. Black underperformance occurs even in areas which are pretty much all Black like Haiti. How much racism does your typical Haitian encounter day to day? On the other hand, Black people in Haiti do have something in common with Black people in the US and Black people in Africa which is that they are descended from people who lived for a long time in one part of the world. The simplest explanation for black intellectual underachievement which is pretty much universal in space and time is that there is some set of alleles which was common in that part of the world which causes much of the disparity. > [@](#): > > And if these phenomena are genetic, why don’t they act like genetic traits? Statistics on things like poverty and education and crime and life expectancy have all changed significantly in the last few decades. Black people in 2013 have the same genes they had in 1913 - so why would their characteristics change if they are genetically based? Well what exactly has changed? Blacks were more violent than whites in 1913 just as they are today. Blacks were more poor than whites in 1913 just like they are today. Crime rates are down for everyone; life expectancy is up for everyone; wealth is up for everyone. The simplest explanation is that things like crime, poverty, and life expectancy are a function of both environment and genes. > [@](#): > > But the way society has treated black people has changed during the same period that the phenomena changed. And the gap has persisted. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/117 "2013-01-06T15:50:55Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > . FWIW GIGObuster is on my ignore list because if his refusal to answer reasonable questions about his position. He is also one of the stupidest posters on this message board. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/118 "2013-01-06T15:52:49Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > FWIW GIGObuster is on my ignore list because if his refusal to answer reasonable questions about his position. He is also one of the stupidest posters on this message board. “Ignore”. You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/119 "2013-01-06T15:55:00Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > FWIW, my position is that the observed racial gap in intelligence is due in large part to genetics. Which explains why the huge expenditure of time, money, and energy to “close the gap” has not succeeded. And you should pray it never does. Without “black people are dumb” threads, all you’ll have left are “climate change is a liberal hoax” threads. Consider how sad, empty and pointless your life is now, and imagine it getting that much sadder, emptier and pointlessier. Yeah. Not a pretty thought, is it? I shudder on your behalf. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/120 "2013-01-06T15:57:28Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > On the other hand, Black people in Haiti do have something in common with Black people in the US and Black people in Africa which is that they are descended from people who lived for a long time in one part of the world. They were also enslaved and transported, and then treated brutally for centuries. > [@](#): > > The simplest explanation for black intellectual underachievement which is pretty much universal in space and time Considering there’s only been even half-way decent testing for a few decades, this is a ridiculous statement (just one of many by you, of course). > [@](#): > > is that there is some set of alleles which was common in that part of the world which causes much of the disparity. Or that a major world event that lasted for centuries (hint- it’s slavery and brutal repression) continues to effect the societies and descendants of those victimized. There’s no evidence for your explanation. > [@](#): > > Well what exactly has changed? Blacks were more violent than whites in 1913 just as they are today. Cite please- I’d love to see some crime stats from that old, broken down by race. And if they do exist, I would hold American crime stats for blacks in 1913 as only slightly more reliable then German crime stats for Jews in 1938. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184.md?page=7)