# Once again, a pitting of our local pseudo-scientific racialists **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 5, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184 "2013-01-05T19:21:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/121 "2013-01-06T16:11:18Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > . . FWIW I do not engage with this poster due to his past dishonesty. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/122 "2013-01-06T16:17:15Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > FWIW I do not engage with this poster due to his past dishonesty. Ahh, now a switch from “ignore” to “do not engage”. Yet another word that I’m not sure actually means what you think it means. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/123 "2013-01-06T16:24:57Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > We know that height, hair color and texture, eye color and shape, skin color, type of ear wax, blood type, and other physical features vary among groups depending on where their ancestors are from. But for some reason there can not possibly be any physical difference that would affect the achievement gap. This. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/124 "2013-01-06T16:31:03Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Isn’t **CP** a Native-American? If so, that’s just another one of those ironic user names I guess. Chief Pedant grew up in northern Pakistan. I suppose that’s not completely incompatible with being of Native American descent, but the combination seems unlikely… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/125 "2013-01-06T16:48:20Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Chief Pedant grew up in northern Pakistan. I suppose that’s not completely incompatible with being of Native American descent, but the combination seems unlikely… East _Indian_ ? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/126 "2013-01-06T17:28:21Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > And yet a physical anthropologist can look at a modern skeleton and measure the relative length of bones and make an educated assumption about the region of the world that the deceased’s ancestors are from. And elsewhere in that site, a physical anthropologist acknowledged that the biologists and geneticists had a point. Where it counts for your arguments, intelligence and many other traits genetics, biology or anthropology the experts found that there was not a big difference in a huge percentage of our traits. What you are lamely missing once again is precisely what they reported, skeletons are useful for physical anthropologists, not useful for deciding what societal solutions for a problem should be applied to the whole population at large. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/127 "2013-01-06T17:29:27Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > This. Not, of course knowing already how a deceiver he is with history one should indeed wonder why others are not willing to tell brazil84 to take a hike. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/128 "2013-01-06T17:41:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There was widespread antisemitism in America as well. From its founding until just a few decades ago. > > I see. So genocide doesn’t result in lower academic scores (in fact, probably boosts them). Slavery does. Gotcha. This is really moronic. Just looking at slavery in America history does report on an important factor on why slavery was different from antisemitism. [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/02/opinion/putting-an-antebellum-myth-about-slave-families-to-rest.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/02/opinion/putting-an-antebellum-myth-about-slave-families-to-rest.html?_r=0) > [@](#): > > Though slaves could not marry legally, they were allowed to do so by custom with the permission of their owners — and most did. But the wedding vows they recited promised not “until death do us part,” but “until distance” — or, as one black minister bluntly put it, “the white man” — “do us part.” And couples were not entitled to live under the same roof, as each spouse could have a different owner, miles apart. All slaves dealt with the threat of forcible separation; untold numbers experienced it first-hand. That is only for starters; I have seen, after decades in an academic settings, that it is clear that one huge factor in performance in society is family stability, even at its worst, antisemitism in America never did go as far as denying marriage to Jews, forcible separation of their families, and \*\*actively preventing \*\*the education to them. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/129 "2013-01-06T17:47:24Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > FWIW GIGObuster is on my ignore list because if his refusal to answer reasonable questions about his position. He is also one of the stupidest posters on this message board. I don’t ignore anybody, and I have found that it is the most honest way to deal with ignorance, I already \*\*demonstrated \*\*how stupid you are as a historian and in climate change issues by pointing to experts in the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/130 "2013-01-06T17:54:43Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > One of the classic claims of many fanatics; that everyone really knows that they are in the right but just refuses to admit it. “In your heart you know he’s right.” Nah, I think I’ll go with my _guts_ on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/131 "2013-01-06T18:02:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > To be fair, you said something _incredibly stupid_. > [@Rigamarole](#): > > Oh? [Really, it’s not fair to expect him to know what you mean without further clarification.](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButForMeItWasTuesday) ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/132 "2013-01-06T18:08:03Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > It is true that the classical races aren’t a valid construct > [@Shagnasty](#): > > Most people refused to answer my question about whether they thought that black Americans as a group are inferior intellectually than other groups. Any progress on rewiring the transporter to re-fuse these two? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/133 "2013-01-06T18:18:21Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > What is the reason this debate needs to be in the pit? The reason is that when people who vehemently deny racial differences in intelligence are exposed to evidence and arguments showing that their position is wrong, they have a tendency to get angry. This is because of a psychological process known as “cognitive dissonance.” Usually their fallback argument is “You’re a racist!!” > [@](#): > > But, over the long haul and over a variety of circumstances and politics, when a given group always ends up on the short end of the stick for a given outcome, I’d argue it’s more likely than not that there is a fundamental difference. I just don’t see the brutality in the Swedish treatment of black immigrants. Agreed, but for some people this type of conclusion is very troubling. People who deny racial differences in intelligence are like tobacco company executives who cannot accept that their product is harmful. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/134 "2013-01-06T18:20:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Wrong again. From [here](http://moreintelligentlife.com/content/jm-ledgard/exodus), Spencer Wells on the question (bolding mine): > > Hint- if you’re going to refer to a famous scientist, you should make sure _he doesn’t support the exact opposite of your position_. I’d actually start to develop a smidgen of respect for Shag when and if he starts redirecting his bile at the people who wrote the misleadingly slanted Cliffs Notes versions of scientific research that blew up in his face when he took them into intellectual battle. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/135 "2013-01-06T18:20:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Around.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_African-American_inventors_and_scientists) This is a bit of a hijack, but I was pleased to see Dr. George Alcorn on that list. He spoke at a symposium I attended some years ago. Very approachable fellow. I think he would like his picture in the ‘about’ column. None of us look like we did ‘back then’ anymore. The idea that there is some simple genetic cause for intelligence is difficult to fathom given the complexity of the phenotypical expression. We sometimes fail to credit culture with the power that it has to affect the outcome of many genetic predispositions. Furthermore, it is certain that in certain black subcultures the idea of succeeding in traditional studies is considered to be ‘too white’. I have seen it myself, sadly. It only takes a few years of immersion in such a morass for this pernicious influence to diminish the probability of intellectual success. Is racism merely an extension of the hatred and fear of ‘The Other’, or does it stem from some other warped construct of reality? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/136 "2013-01-06T18:23:53Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Nobody told me any misleading information about Spencer Wells. If so, you must have just made up the misleading information you posted about Spencer Wells, which is worse. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/137 "2013-01-06T18:36:24Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > Furthermore, it is certain that in certain black subcultures the idea of succeeding in traditional studies is considered to be ‘too white’. Ahh, Liberal Excuse Number 435,112 for Black intellectual underachievement. What is your evidence for this hypothesis? ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/138 "2013-01-06T18:38:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ahh yes, he “ignores” me, by showing up in the thread I started. His definition of “ignore” must be a bit different then mine! His definition of ‘ignore’ requires him to follow those he’s ignoring around, so that he can loudly proclaim to all and sundry that he’s ignoring them (primarily because he lost a debate with them). Oddest definition of ‘ignore’ I’ve ever encountered. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/139 "2013-01-06T18:38:41Z")
I’m sure there are a few posters who insists that it must be true that all ethnic groups or populations are equivalent in genetic, intellectual potential. But the point most of us have tried to make is not that. The point is that we just don’t have the data to say one way or the other. I mean… first you have the enormous problem of defining what intelligence even is, not to mention that there are kinds of different intelligences. Heck, there are some surprisingly complex, quantitative tests in which chimps routinely outperform humans-- memorizing the order of numbers placed randomly on a grid and flashed in front of the viewer for a fraction of a second. What’s up with that? What I find annoying, and so I usually stay out of those threads now, is the insistence from the racialists here that the experiment has been performed, and the hypothesis is now a theory. No, the experiment has not been performed. There is nothing wrong with the hypothesis that different populations might be genetically “smarter” in some areas than other populations. But that is just the beginning of the scientific process, not the end. And our chief racialist here is a reminder that, contrary to what many people may think, medical doctors are not scientists. Some are, but most are not. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184/140 "2013-01-06T18:39:36Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Ahh, Liberal Excuse Number 435,112 for Black intellectual underachievement. What is your evidence for this hypothesis? The funny thing is that your “explanation” (evidence-free as it is) is far more of an “excuse” then anything the Massive Liberal Conspiracy offers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-a-pitting-of-our-local-pseudo-scientific-racialists/646184.md?page=8)