# Once again, European leaders condemn Israel **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 18, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626 "2004-04-18T03:24:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![agiantdwarf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8c91f0/32.png) [@agiantdwarf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agiantdwarf)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626/1 "2004-04-18T03:24:39Z")
Once again, European leaders condemn Israel for killing terrorists. What a joke. [From a CNN article:](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/17/rantisi.reaction/index.html) > [@](#): > > “The British government has made it repeatedly clear that so-called targeted assassinations of this kind are unlawful, unjustified and counterproductive.” He might be right that they’re counterproductive, but unlawful? This is disgusting, and an obvious double standard against Israel. Like the the thread I made after Yassin’s death, I ask, would European leaders condemn the United States for assassinating Osama? Would they call it unlawful and unjustified? Maybe if Osama breaks his legs and goes to medical school he’ll get a free pass. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626/2 "2004-04-18T03:29:41Z")
bin Laden is in hiding in a unpopulated, inhospitable, and yet-to-be-surveyed range of mountains, and is surrounded by heavily armed men. Yassin was walking out of a mosque in Gaza. It isn’t as if he couldn’t have been _arrested_ and tried. Besides, John Negroponte (US Ambassador to the UN) called the killing “deeply troubling to the USA”. Presumably you should be pitting the Administration too. ---
**Author:** ![agiantdwarf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8c91f0/32.png) [@agiantdwarf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agiantdwarf)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626/3 "2004-04-18T03:39:06Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > It isn’t as if he couldn’t have been _arrested_ and tried. It’s not like if we found Osama we couldn’t send in hordes of men to their death just to try to get him alive, right? And risk losing him? I mean, that’s what you wish for, right? The death of soldiers for absolutely no reason. > [@](#): > > Besides, John Negroponte (US Ambassador to the UN) called the killing “deeply troubling to the USA”. Presumably you should be pitting the Administration too. Deeply troubling = “oh shit, this conflict could escalate” != “this is unlawful” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626/4 "2004-04-18T04:21:49Z")
**agd:** _This is disgusting, and an obvious double standard against Israel._ You may not like the fact that extrajudicial killings are against international law (even for enemy leaders in wartime), but it’s silly to try to frame it as a specific “double standard” against Israel. As this _Jurist_ article on the killing of Uday and Qusay Hussein makes clear, there is nothing new about condemning assassinations as illegal (and official US policy supports that condemnation): > [@](#): > > Targeted, or political, assassinations are extrajudicial executions. They are unlawful and deliberate killings carried out by order of, or with the acquiescence of, a government, outside any judicial framework. Extrajudicial executions are unlawful, even in armed conflict. In a 1998 report, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions noted that “extrajudicial executions can never be justified under any circumstances, not even in time of war.” > > The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, a treaty ratified by the United States, prohibits the arbitrary denial of the right to life, a right so fundamental, there can be no derogation from it even in “time of public emergency which threatens the life of the nation.” The U.N. General Assembly and Human Rights Commission, as well as Amnesty International, have all condemned extrajudicial executions. > > After the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence disclosed in 1975 that the CIA had been involved in several murders or attempted murders of foreign leaders, President Gerald Ford issued an executive order banning assassinations. Although every succeeding president has renewed that order, the Clinton administration targeted Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan, but narrowly missed him. > > In July 2001, the U.S. Ambassador to Israel denounced Israel’s policy of targeted killings, or “preemptive operations.” He said “the United States government is very clearly on the record as against targeted assassinations. They are extrajudicial killings, and we do not support that.” ---
**Author:** ![agiantdwarf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8c91f0/32.png) [@agiantdwarf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agiantdwarf)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626/5 "2004-04-18T04:27:57Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > **agd:** _This is disgusting, and an obvious double standard against Israel._ > > You may not like the fact that extrajudicial killings are against international law (even for enemy leaders in wartime), but it’s silly to try to frame it as a specific “double standard” against Israel. As this _Jurist_ article on the killing of Uday and Qusay Hussein makes clear, there is nothing new about condemning assassinations as illegal (and official US policy supports that condemnation): That URL doesn’t work. Were Uday and Qusay’s killings also illegal? Did Britain condemn us? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626/6 "2004-04-18T04:34:27Z")
Once again the European leaders are correct. Israel’s policy of summary execution violates international law. Not only that, it is disgusting. If the Mossad’s intellignece on Hamas is so wonderful then the Israeli’s must be aware of these leaders’ locations much of the time (unlike the USA with bin Laden). They should go in an arrest the guy, rather than play judge, jury and executioner. If the USA were to simply kill bin Laden instead of trying to arrest him, they too would be wrong. Just as they were in the case of the Hussein brothers. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626/7 "2004-04-18T04:35:06Z")
> [@agiantdwarf](#): > > It’s not like if we found Osama we couldn’t send in hordes of men to their death just to try to get him alive, right? And risk losing him? > > I mean, that’s what you wish for, right? The death of soldiers for absolutely no reason. No, fucktard. YOU are comparing bin Laden and Yassin. I am pointing out that theirs are entirely different scenarios. I would hardly expect us to unnecessarily send men into an entrenched fortification to dig out bin Laden without killing him, were there a risk of casualties or of him escaping. Yassin was a 67 year old man in a wheelchair; arresting him would hardly have cost lives. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626/8 "2004-04-18T04:41:05Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > Yassin was a 67 year old man in a wheelchair; arresting him would hardly have cost lives. I don’t know. Was he always alone? No one around who may want to prove his mettle by defending him? ---
**Author:** ![agiantdwarf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8c91f0/32.png) [@agiantdwarf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agiantdwarf)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626/9 "2004-04-18T04:50:40Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > Yassin was a 67 year old man in a wheelchair; arresting him would hardly have cost lives. Haha. You ignoramus. Well, I’m done debating with you… ---
**Author:** ![Necro\_Romancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Necro\_Romancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necro_Romancer)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626/10 "2004-04-18T05:10:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Yassin was a 67 year old man in a wheelchair; arresting him would hardly have cost lives. Yassin wasn’t a poor, disabled Floridian retiree; he was the spiritual leader of Hamas. He was well loved, not just by Hamas, and well guarded. To say that Israeli personnel could have so much as walked into the area without having rocks thrown at them is ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626/11 "2004-04-18T05:40:23Z")
Wouldn’t putting Rantisi on trial have led to more attacks in an effort to free him? Rantisi was an asshole who got what he deserved. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626/12 "2004-04-18T05:43:20Z")
> [@agiantdwarf](#): > > Haha. You ignoramus. Well, I’m done debating with you… You accuse _me_ of wanting the deaths of soldiers for absolutely no reason, and then suggest that you were attempting to _debate_ me? Call me an ignoramus, no less. The irony is delicious. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626/13 "2004-04-18T05:57:47Z")
Yassin had three bodyguards, all of whom were in his car. I’m not suggesting that a couple of Israeli police officers should have pulled him over and tried to arrest him. I’m suggesting that Israel could at least have _tried_ to arrest him, rather than simply sending in a gunship. Yassin had been arrested without a struggle at least twice before. He was released from his last detention in 1997. None of the Israeli press releases regarding the killing make reference to _any_ attempt to have Yassin stand trial. No reference was made to any kind of legal justification for the operation. The IDF and Foreign Ministry both referred to it as a “targeted killing”. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626/14 "2004-04-18T06:01:13Z")
> [@agiantdwarf](#): > > Deeply troubling = “oh shit, this conflict could escalate” != “this is unlawful” I should add, THAT is flat-out wrong. The US did not vote for the UN resolution condemning Yassin’s assassination purely because it was not worded as to also contain a condemnation of HAMAS. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626/15 "2004-04-18T06:08:43Z")
> [@agiantdwarf](#): > > Deeply troubling = “oh shit, this conflict could escalate” != “this is unlawful” Well, you’ve really let those people who were saying that "deeply troubling = “this is unlawful” have it. Who were they again? And where did you read their assertion? ---
**Author:** ![agiantdwarf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8c91f0/32.png) [@agiantdwarf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agiantdwarf)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626/16 "2004-04-18T06:13:33Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Well, you’ve really let those people who were saying that "deeply troubling = “this is unlawful” have it. > > Who were they again? And where did you read their assertion? > [@](#): > > Really Not All That Bright > > Besides, John Negroponte (US Ambassador to the UN) called the killing “deeply troubling to the USA”. Presumably you should be pitting the Administration too. Considering that I am pitting people who are calling this unlawful (my position being clear here: “He might be right that they’re counterproductive, but unlawful?”), why else would Mr. Not All That Bright suggest I pit the administration? ---
**Author:** ![Necro\_Romancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Necro\_Romancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necro_Romancer)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626/17 "2004-04-18T06:25:12Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > Yassin had three bodyguards, all of whom were in his car. I’m not suggesting that a couple of Israeli police officers should have pulled him over and tried to arrest him. > > I’m suggesting that Israel could at least have _tried_ to arrest him, rather than simply sending in a gunship. So a suicide mission, and _then_ missile attack? Israel couldn’t go into the area without people having their guns at the ready, let alone getting near Yassin. The man wasn’t George Clooney loved; plenty of people would have laid down their lives to defend him. If watching the news footage after the assassination didn’t show you this (i’m assuming you did; apologies if not), then take it from the guy who is acquainted-with-someone-who-is-a-close-relative-of-a-student-of-his. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626/18 "2004-04-18T06:29:45Z")
> [@agiantdwarf](#): > > Considering that I am pitting people who are calling this unlawful (my position being clear here: “He might be right that they’re counterproductive, but unlawful?”), why else would Mr. Not All That Bright suggest I pit the administration? See my previous post. > [@Necro Romancer](#): > > So a suicide mission, and then missile attack? Israel couldn’t go into the area without people having their guns at the ready, let alone getting near Yassin. The man wasn’t George Clooney loved; plenty of people would have laid down their lives to defend him. If watching the news footage after the assassination didn’t show you this (i’m assuming you did; apologies if not), then take it from the guy who is acquainted-with-someone-who-is-a-close-relative-of-a-student-of-his. Well done. You managed not to quote the part of my post which points out that HE’S BEEN ARRESTED BEFORE WITHOUT A STRUGGLE. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626/19 "2004-04-18T06:38:31Z")
> [@agiantdwarf](#): > > He might be right that they’re counterproductive, but unlawful? This is disgusting, and an obvious double standard against Israel. I didn’t notice this the first time through. You make it sound as though Britain has never had a problem with terrorism. I can assure you it has, and for even longer than the Israelis. However, successive UK governments managed to fight the IRA and associated paramilitary organizations without assassinating anyone. Don’t tell me “it was different, because they weren’t blowing people up in England, Scotland, or Wales”, because they certainly were. My brother escaped the Canary Wharf bombing by the skin of his teeth. Now: show me your obvious double standard. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2004, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626/20 "2004-04-18T06:38:54Z")
Fuck Yassin, wheelchair and all, fuck Rantisi, and FUCK HAMAS. After they arranged and condoned suicide bombings, their deaths can not possibly come soon enough. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-european-leaders-condemn-israel/240626.md?page=2)