Or they may have. As noted earlier, allegations against the Government went all the way to the top and were deemed credible by the Judge overseeing the case. “Official” policy or not.
I mean c’mon Twisty, wouldn’t you snort a bit if the Tories were to condemn Israel over this?
I would intrepret it as that Rune was trying to say Spain are disqualified from condemning Israel because of the past actions. I wouldn’t necessarily agree with that.
Illegal or not, the Spanish government WERE involved in assassinations. They paid the price for those actions (the guilty parties were tired and convicted, the government lost the election). the will of the People was heard.
and if the will of the spanish people is that State Assassination should be condemned, it is the appropriate action for the spanish government to condemn it.
ruadh believes that if a government official commits a crime, even if he is severly punished, that disqualifies his country’s government from ever criticising other countries from doing the same thing. Does anybody agree with that?
Is the USA disqualified from criticising corruption in other countries because corruption has existed in the US government? Is the US government disqualified from criticizing other countries’ human rights records because some US government officials have broken the law and abused people? I just don’t think so.
If the USA allowed and condoned rape then it would be disqualified from criticising others that do the same. But if the laws of the USA make it a crime and it is prosecuted and punished then, if a high ranking official is caught and punished doing that it does not disqualify the US at all. On the contrary, by punishing the act the USA is saying “we do not condone this, we punish it even when our own do it, and so should you”.
Otherwise the USA has no right to criticise anything as there is probably not a single crime which has not been committed at one time or another by US government officers.
only because those responsible will never see trial. They did in Spain. the degree of responsibility can be argued by others more knowledgeable of the situation than I.
It would really suit your arguement if thuis was true Sailor, however it isn’t.
Okay, so I am missing or misunderstanding ruadh’s position regarding the questions I posed. You are saying ruadh is not meaning the Spanish government is disqualified from criticizing extrajudicial killings. I interpret it differently.
Ruadh, do you believe the Spanish government is disqualified from being critical of extrajudicial killings on account of the illegal acts commited by some officers? Yes or no?
Well that was most certainly not my intention and I’m sorry if I made myself unclear. I didn’t mean anything terrible deep about it, I was just responding to a statement further up the thread that European countries had never engaged in such dirty methods against terrorists. When I remembered, without investigated further, some cases that clearly went against that notion. The Spanish incident I remembered was someone getting shot in what was very suspicious circumstances on a parking lot after he had been pacified and handcuffed – it might have been in Germany though. But I see you have found other examples from Spain yourself. As a European I just thought I was entitled to a bit of Euro-bashing after all the US-bashing that goes around. (But perhaps we should swap countries and places Sailor – emm… how does your wife look?) And, married to a Spanish wife and family (and planning to move there), I’m of course happy to see you have such high regards for the Spanish way of handling the ETA problems. Especially remembering (well you know how my memory is) how you have been very critical about it before (back when Spain was in on the whole coalition thing – coincidently no doubt)
No, and I never said I did believe that. But it seems I’m not the only one you’ve misinterpreted in this thread.
Twisty:
Some of them did, anyway.
I have no allegiance to any country or government or group of people. I believe a country is only worth defending when it stands for right and as soon as it is doing wrong I am not about to defend it. My only allegiance is to what I believe to be right and wrong. I have defended the USA and its president, including GWB, countless times before but I parted company with them when they started this damn fool war. I still defend them and will defend them when they do right. And I hope they go back soon to doing what is right. I will defend the Spanish government and people when I believe they are doing right and I will condemn them when i believe they are doing wrong. I have no allegiace to anybody at all. I would not help my family commit a crime. I would stop them if I could and I would help their innocent victims before I would help them (my family) commit a crime.
Regarding the specific post of yours which prompted this exchange, since ruadh has clarified this point it seems we all agree that Spain is not disqualified from being critical of extrajudicial killings and therefore does not belong on your list. Spain can very legitimately be critical of extra-judicial killings.