# Once again I'll be voting Republican **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 11, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008 "2004-09-11T04:20:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/61 "2004-09-12T09:57:53Z")
> [@qts](#): > > UBL is almost certainly dead. Oh. Riiiiight. Bush is keeping that quiet of modesty. You are the first person I’ve heard with this particular delusion. > [@qts](#): > > Is Kerry going to repeal the Patriot Act? He damn well better. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/62 "2004-09-12T10:19:26Z")
> [@qts](#): > > Well, how about you offer a reason why I should vote for Kerry other than, “He’s not Bush”? The unwarranted insults aimed at Bush and those who do not support the Democrats do the Democrats a great deal of harm. Bush is **not** stupid - he’s got a MBA and used to fly a jet, neither of which are simple. Bush did extraordinarily well in the aftermath of 9/11. UBL is almost certainly dead. Bush has removed a vicious dictator from power whom almost everyone - including Kerry - were convinced had WMD. We part over the administration of Iraq since - we should have given Saddam a quick trial and then packed up and gone home - but Kerry offers nothing different. Economics? We hear critcism of the current administration but no concrete, budgetted alternative. We hear of a return to the Clinton era, which led to the dotcom bust and Enron. Is Kerry going to repeal the Patriot Act? And it goes on. Most Americans have not the sophistication of people on this board, indeed are better thought of as orcs. Kerry’s strategy, as with all electoral strategies, is to release sufficient detail of his policy into the fleeting window of interest the orcs display pre-election. Why should he release coherent, articulated and costed policies for the benefit of the erudite, thoughtful and intellectually diligent. They already vote for him. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/63 "2004-09-12T10:43:34Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Oh. Riiiiight. Bush is keeping that quiet of modesty. You are the first person I’ve heard with this particular delusion. You have proof that he’s alive? Sorry, but the idea of UBL being probably dead has been around for over a year. When was the last time we saw a video of him? Try reading a bit more widely. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/64 "2004-09-12T10:47:18Z")
> [@qts](#): > > You have proof that he’s alive? Sorry, but the idea of UBL being probably dead has been around for over a year. When was the last time we saw a video of him? Try reading a bit more widely. Sure . . . I’ll widen my reading to include those nutjob tabloids and their delusional speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/65 "2004-09-12T13:07:25Z")
**qts** , have you given any thought to the example I requested, where a leader does something on foreign policy issue opposite of your view, but because of his character and him not being “pushed around on the international stage” you support him? That might really help me understand your position. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/66 "2004-09-12T15:18:45Z")
> [@qts](#): > > …whom almost everyone - including Kerry - were convinced had WMD… That, Sir, it´s a boldfaced lie; specially the “almost everyone part”. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/67 "2004-09-12T15:24:02Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > **qts** , have you given any thought to the example I requested, where a leader does something on foreign policy issue opposite of your view, but because of his character and him not being “pushed around on the international stage” you support him? That might really help me understand your position. Not the exactly the international stage, but I profoundly disagreed with the way the Foot and Mouth disease here in the UK was handled. To me it seemed much more sensible to vaccinate the animals and possibly suffer the loss of exports - much as they do in Argentina when they have an outbreak. Messrs Brown and Blair took a different view and decided upon the policy of wholesale slaughter. I could see what they wanted to achieve, and they achieved it, and I respect them for that. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/68 "2004-09-12T16:54:39Z")
> [@qts](#): > > I can’t speak for Bill, but in my case the answer is “Absolutely.” Character is one of the prime considerations for choosing a leader. Bush has shown that he is a leader; Kerry has yet so to do. America needs a leader who can stand up on the international stage. **I’m so tired of this lie.** John Kerry has _shown_ his leadership skills on _numerous_, critical issues during his Senate career, _particulary_ with regard to the “international stage.” [ul][li] He was the [original whistle-blower in Iran/Contra](http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/062003.shtml), _leading_ the investigation and uncovering all the corruption in the Reagan administration (which included Bush the elder, recall).[/li][li]Kerry was _instrumental_ in [renewing relations with Vietnam](http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/2004/la-na-kerryprofile16jan16,1,6534260.story?coll=la-news-elect2004), and putting to rest the concern that there were still U.S. soldiers being held captive there.[/li][li]John Kerry was responsible for [blowing wide open, then dismantling, the Bank of Credit and Commerce International](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0409.sirota.html), a multi-billion dollar source of international terrorist financing, whose depositors included none other than Osama Fucking Bin Laden. [/ul] So please, get your facts straight before making stupid, unsupportable allegations.[/li] And **choie** , I concur with several others here – outstanding post! As further support for this: > [@choie](#): > > Not particularly, if you actually read what he says instead of the snippets of speeches that are first chopped to bits, spit upon, and served up by the Republican politicians/pundits, cheerfully swallowed by the shallow, lazy media, who then finally regurgitate it back to you. > > For example, if you’re talking about the fact that he voted for the IWR (Iraq War Resolution) but now is against the war, you should a) read the actual IWR text, and b) read his speech on the Senate floor at the time of the vote. The IWR makes it absolutely clear under what conditions the Congress was authorizing military action. In his speech at the time, Kerry strongly emphasized these conditions, saying that Bush must exhaust every diplomatic means possible to let the weapons inspectors do their job in Iraq, prior to military action. Kerry (and the other IWR yes-voters) made the mistake of thinking we had a trustworthy CIC willing to avoid armed conflict and bloodshed. See **Republican** Congressman Nick Smith’s opening remarks to the Committee on International Relations from February, 2003: > [@](#): > > [http://wwwc.house.gov/international\_relations/108/smit0212.htm](http://wwwc.house.gov/international_relations/108/smit0212.htm) (all emphasis mine) > > … > > Last October, Congress authorized the President to use force, **if necessary** , to protect American security and disarm Iraq. \*\*It also called on the President to work with the U.N. \*\* … > > … > > We \*\*all \*\* hope that we can achieve Iraqi disarmament **without war**. But given the blatant Iraqi defiance of the U.N. Security Council along with the threat to our security and that of our allies, we must be willing to act militarily. I agree with analysts who believe that if Saddam Hussein is convinced we will go to war, he is likely to give up the weapons or accept exile and take his multibillion dollar fortune with him. **Being prepared and willing to enforce compliance with U.N. resolutions actually reduces the chances of war.** If Saddam Hussein does change course and accept exile or disarmament, it will be only because he fears gathering allied forces that are ready and willing to act. > > **Our State Department has increasing responsibility to improve communications with citizens of all countries that have a stake in this and other pressing issues.** One needs no further evidence that the Republican smear machine will stop at nothing to achieve their ends, including mischaracterizing their opponent **because they have _nothing_ to run on**! ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/69 "2004-09-12T17:26:55Z")
> [@qts](#): > > Not the exactly the international stage, but I profoundly disagreed with the way the Foot and Mouth disease here in the UK was handled. To me it seemed much more sensible to vaccinate the animals and possibly suffer the loss of exports - much as they do in Argentina when they have an outbreak. Messrs Brown and Blair took a different view and decided upon the policy of wholesale slaughter. I could see what they wanted to achieve, and they achieved it, and I respect them for that. Thanks **qts**. I infer from your example (and the point of this thread) that you would then support Brown and Blair over a candidate that was for vaccination if seemed like there a possibility he’d buckle under pressure to slaughter. Is this correct? If so, then I think we have our core disagreement. Me, I’d prefer the candidate who is at least likely to legislate/decide in agreement with me, than one is sure not to. The result of the decisions/legistalations are far more important to me, and far more likely to effect me. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/70 "2004-09-12T17:30:26Z")
> [@shayna](#): > > So please, get your facts straight before making stupid, unsupportable allegations. Colour me ignorant, so enlighten me but don’t call someone stupid. That’s a sure-fire way to piss people off and lose their vote. And contrary to the ethos of the Dope. None of these have been widely publicised - if at all - recently on this side of the Pond. Your first link 404s and the second demands registration, but I’ve looked at the third and kudos to Kerry for it. I remember the BCCI scandal all too well - the organisation for which I worked lost a modest amount of money. But why isn’t he bringing all this up? This is a classic opportunity for him to say to Bush, “You let Enron happen; I rooted out BCCI.” And _he’s not doing it._ **He’s got to let people know** about his achievements. And _he’s not doing it_. He’s let himself get bogged down attacking Bush’s record 30 years ago. It’s public knowledge that Bush was a wastrel then; it’s equally public knowledge that he’s reformed, so it’s a dead duck politically. So why pursue it? He could be campaigning on the honesty and integrity, especially if Bush and his staff are as corrupt as some here suggest, and _he’s not doing it_. Does this change my perception of Kerry? Certainly. Significantly? Not until I’ve read further. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/71 "2004-09-12T17:39:10Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Thanks **qts**. I infer from your example (and the point of this thread) that you would then support Brown and Blair over a candidate that was for vaccination if seemed like there a possibility he’d buckle under pressure to slaughter. Is this correct? More or less: they were presented with the alternatives (slaughter vs vaccination), devised a plan, and saw it carried it through, despite opposition. They said what they were going to do and went and did it. Compare that to a weaker man who might have flip-flopped between the two, resulting in utter confusion and (worst case) the utter destruction of British animal farming. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/72 "2004-09-12T17:43:39Z")
> [@qts](#): > > Your first link 404s That’s because there’s a " at the end of the url. Remove that and it’ll work. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/73 "2004-09-12T17:48:00Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > About the only things I have in common with the Republicans anymore are my pro-business, anti-green and hawk tendencies. This is so bizarre to me. Why are you ANTI-green? How can anyone embrace such a position?!? “Oh yeah, I hate the environment and I’m all for trashing it. Fuck other species. Let’s build more parking lots! More poison in the air? You bet!” WTF? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/74 "2004-09-12T18:44:59Z")
Shayna, I’m slightly confused. The article you cite about BCCI is biased in the extreme - and, to be fair, makes no bones about it. You’d have done better to cite the [official record](http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1992_rpt/bcci), which I’ve skimmed. But all I can glean re Kerry is that Kerry chaired the hearings. I’ve yet to find much info on what happenned beforehand. I’ve looked at your Iran-Contra link and that’s actually a negative for me since I support the fight against Communism. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/75 "2004-09-12T19:07:16Z")
> [@qts](#): > > I’ve looked at your Iran-Contra link and that’s actually a negative for me since I support the fight against Communism. Since character is more important to you than issues (such as fighting communism), if he showed strong character during Iran-Contra that would be enough for you to support him, right? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/76 "2004-09-12T19:19:23Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > This is so bizarre to me. Why are you ANTI-green? How can anyone embrace such a position?!? “Oh yeah, I hate the environment and I’m all for trashing it. Fuck other species. Let’s build more parking lots! More poison in the air? You bet!” > > WTF? \*\*Bill H. \*\*has ding-dong-ditched us. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/77 "2004-09-12T19:21:07Z")
> [@qts](#): > > I’ve looked at your Iran-Contra link and that’s actually a negative for me since I support the fight against Communism. What fight? What communism? There are about three countries in the world that are Communist anymore, and two of them are isolated, third-world shitholes (albeit one has a completely loopy ruler, but that would be the fight against Kim, not the fight against Communism), and one is China, which is becoming LESS Communist every day. The Cold War is over, Cold Warrior. Shed your obsolete dreams and come in out of the snow… ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/78 "2004-09-12T19:22:31Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > \*\*Bill H. \*\*has ding-dong-ditched us. Of course, it’s possible **Bill H.** might be one of those who only has access to the 'net at work, or maybe simply does other things on the weekend. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/79 "2004-09-12T19:24:23Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Since character is more important to you than issues (such as fighting communism), if he showed strong character during Iran-Contra that would be enough for you to support him, right? No: Kerry’s aim seemed to be more to discredit than do good and I don’t call that strong character. As an aside, I think there was a woeful lack of judgement by many, including Kerry on Iran-Contra - some things need to be done on the black. Once it became the train-wreck that it did, it should have been quickly and quietly closed down. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/80 "2004-09-12T19:26:50Z")
> [@qts](#): > > No: Kerry’s aim seemed to be more to discredit than do good and I don’t call that strong character. > > As an aside, I think there was a woeful lack of judgement by many, including Kerry on Iran-Contra - some things need to be done on the black. Once it became the train-wreck that it did, it should have been quickly and quietly closed down. Damn him for sticking to the principle that the government is beholden to the people and not above the law, even in the face of his own party leadership! Damn him! What lack of character! What weakness of spine! How _could_ the Democrats nominate such an immoral person! :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008.md?page=5)