# Once again I'll be voting Republican **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 11, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008 "2004-09-11T04:20:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/81 "2004-09-12T19:28:16Z")
Oh, and **qts** , how did you feel about the kerfluffle made about Clinton’s blowjob? Should that have been quickly and quietly shut down, too, or did the Republicans pursue the proper character-showing path? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/82 "2004-09-12T19:54:28Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Oh, and **qts** , how did you feel about the kerfluffle made about Clinton’s blowjob? Should that have been quickly and quietly shut down, too, or did the Republicans pursue the proper character-showing path? That was in many ways a mountain made out of a molehill :D. Clinton should have resigned On the other hand, he does have theexcuse that he’s married to Hillary… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/83 "2004-09-12T20:03:35Z")
> [@qts](#): > > That was in many ways a mountain made out of a molehill :D. Clinton should have resigned On the other hand, he does have theexcuse that he’s married to Hillary… Wow. A leap and a dodge. Impressive. Could you comment on the impression I get that you think it would have been far more of a show of character for Kerry to allow the Iran-Contra thing to slip past under the radar, and why that shows more character than bringing _ **illegal dealings** _ by the executive branch of the federal government to the attention of the appropriate authorities as well as the electorate? When did “look the other way” become a sign of character? ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/84 "2004-09-12T23:00:52Z")
> [@qts](#): > > As an aside, I think there was a woeful lack of judgement by many, including Kerry on Iran-Contra - some things need to be done on the black. Once it became the train-wreck that it did, it should have been quickly and quietly closed down. I agree…This whole democracy shit is way-overrated! If the executive branch wants to set up its own little government in secret to flaut our nation’s laws, more power to them! **Now, that’s character!** (And, certainly, we don’t need the public to know what happened…It’s all too complicated and over-their-head anyway. We don’t want to worry their pretty little heads over these sorts of things. Better they know the details about important issues that might influence their vote, like the President’s fidelity to his wife.) :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Well, how about you offer a reason why I should vote for Kerry other than, “He’s not Bush”? You might want to look at [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=275436) Great Debates thread. (Although given some of your responses here, I am really not all that optimistic of getting a much more engaging response from you than we got from the OP.) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/85 "2004-09-12T23:14:13Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Wow. A leap and a dodge. Impressive. > > Could you comment on the impression I get that you think it would have been far more of a show of character for Kerry to allow the Iran-Contra thing to slip past under the radar, and why that shows more character than bringing _ **illegal dealings** _ by the executive branch of the federal government to the attention of the appropriate authorities as well as the electorate? > > When did “look the other way” become a sign of character? I think we all know the answer to that question – when George W. Bush was “elected” president. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/86 "2004-09-13T05:00:19Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > He **is** wishy-washy. Not any moreso than anyone with a 20+ year record as a legislator. > [@](#): > > He **did** sell out his fellow veterans. No, he absolutely did not. His conscience told him that opposing and ending the war was the best way to bring the boys home, how is that evil? > [@](#): > > Though he did see a hell of a lot more war action than Bush, he **did** grossly inflate his heroics and awards there. The Swift Boat Veterans are lying filth and their claims have not held up to the mildest of perusal. So why do you repeat their claims? ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/87 "2004-09-13T05:10:09Z")
> [@qts](#): > > Shayna, I’m slightly confused. The article you cite about BCCI is biased in the extreme - and, to be fair, makes no bones about it. You’d have done better to cite the [official record](http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1992_rpt/bcci), which I’ve skimmed. But all I can glean re Kerry is that Kerry chaired the hearings. I’ve yet to find much info on what happenned beforehand. > > I’ve looked at your Iran-Contra link and that’s actually a negative for me since I support the fight against Communism. So in order to fight Communism, it’s okay for the president of the United States to violate the law? What sort of bullshit position is that? Fight Communism, go America… but fucking do it within the law, or you deserve to be run out on a rail. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/88 "2004-09-13T06:06:25Z")
> [@qts](#): > > I’ve looked at your Iran-Contra link and that’s actually a negative for me since I support the fight against Communism. I’m not sure that you know much about Iran-Contra, since it seems inconceivable that one could _support_ something that vile. A summary - Reagan’s administration sold weapons to Iran, at that time one of the US’s greatest enemies (it was actually holding US hostages at the time!). The arms sales were illegal under US law and in violation of UN sanctions. It used the proceeds from this to destabilize the democratically elected left-wing government of Nicaragua by funding and arming civilian-killing terrorists linked to the fallen Somoza dictatorship. This funding and arming was also illegal under US law. The CIA also turned a blind eye to the Contras’ sales of cocaine, including its importation into the United States. This was also illegal under any number of laws. Selling weapons to fundamentalist nutjobs, funding and arming terrorists and allowing drugs to be sold all over the world, including in America. How the everloving fuck can you support this? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/89 "2004-09-13T06:19:00Z")
> [@qts](#): > > I’ve looked at your Iran-Contra link and that’s actually a negative for me since I support the fight against Communism. I guess you support violating international and US laws then, because, as **Atticus Finch** put it so much better than I could, that’s exactly what Iran-Contra was. Read the book, \* Our Own Backyard: The United States in Central America, 1977-1992\* by William M. Leogrande. (You know, that was a good book, I think I’ll put in a request from the library and read it again!) Kerry being the initial whistleblower immediately changes me from, “Anyone but Bush” to “GO KERRY!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/90 "2004-09-13T06:39:24Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Reagan’s administration sold weapons to Iran, at that time one of the US’s greatest enemies (it was actually holding US hostages at the time!). A slight nitpick if I may: If you are speaking of the 52 hostages held for 444 days during the astoundingly inept Carter administration, they were all released and flown out of Iran on the day that Reagan _became_ President. As to the rest if your post, I imagine a lot of it is speculation or contains key omissions (for example, was the “democratically elected left-wing” government you spoke of truly elected voluntarily and without duress by the Nicaraguan population, or was it elected in the same way that Saddam Hussein won his elections? I don’t know for sure, but it appears to me this may be one bone of contention among those who wanted to unseat said left-wing government) but I’m no longer familiar enough with the issue to comment properly. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/91 "2004-09-13T07:04:06Z")
> [@](#): > > A slight nitpick if I may: If you are speaking of the 52 hostages held for 444 days during the astoundingly inept Carter administration, they were all released and flown out of Iran on the day that Reagan became President. No, I’m not speaking of those particular hostages. I’m speaking of those held in Lebanon by groups that took Iranian money and orders, such as al Quds / Hizbullah. The aim of the arms sales to Iran was supposedly to free these hostages. > [@](#): > > As to the rest if your post, I imagine a lot of it is speculation or contains key omissions (for example, was the “democratically elected left-wing” government you spoke of truly elected voluntarily and without duress by the Nicaraguan population, or was it elected in the same way that Saddam Hussein won his elections? I don’t know for sure, but it appears to me this may be one bone of contention among those who wanted to unseat said left-wing government) but I’m no longer familiar enough with the issue to comment properly. If you claim my summary is speculation or omits important information, feel free to point out specific flaws. The 1985 election, won by the Sandinistas, for example, was said to be imperfect but still “fair” by a group of international observers including a Brit, Lord Chitnis. The US government objected to it, however, but we know their political stance on this issue. Please note that the Sandinistas are still the second most popular political party in Nicaragua and are still led by Ortega. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/92 "2004-09-13T08:27:57Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > No, I’m not speaking of those particular hostages. I’m speaking of those held in Lebanon by groups that took Iranian money and orders, such as al Quds / Hizbullah. The aim of the arms sales to Iran was supposedly to free these hostages. Thank you. I had forgotten about them. (Like I said, I’ve forgotten much about that episode. 🙂 > [@Atticus Finch](#): > > If you claim my summary is speculation or omits important information, feel free to point out specific flaws. No, nothing in particular. I’m just aware that things are rarely that cut and dried regarding elections in that part of the world. > [@Atticus Finch](#): > > The 1985 election, won by the Sandinistas, for example, was said to be imperfect but still “fair” by a group of international observers including a Brit, Lord Chitnis. The US government objected to it, however, but we know their political stance on this issue. Nothing against you personally, but I’m not that great a believer in the opinions of “international observers” these days. They have their agendas too, as we’ve seen regarding Iraq. > [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Please note that the Sandinistas are still the second most popular political party in Nicaragua and are still led by Ortega. Noted. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/93 "2004-09-13T09:28:42Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Wow. A leap and a dodge. Impressive. > > Could you comment on the impression I get that you think it would have been far more of a show of character for Kerry to allow the Iran-Contra thing to slip past under the radar. That’s not what I said. The affair should not have become public. Kerry should have put his country before his own personal advancement, but still closed it down. A quiet word with the President … Sometimes governments need to act illegally. ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/94 "2004-09-13T09:34:37Z")
> [@qts](#): > > Well, how about you offer a reason why I should vote for Kerry other than, “He’s not Bush”? The unwarranted insults aimed at Bush Actually the insults are in a way warranted, as Bush has done a lot of things to provoke such a reaction. That also makes the “he’s not Bush” stance viable - normally it wouldn’t be, you’re right. It’s sad that this, Kerry not being Bush, has become an important issue, but it’s Bush’s own fault for creating that situation. I probably don’t have to list Bush’s transgressions again, they are all over the board and well known by now. Certainly, I and a lot of other people commend Bush for dealing with the aftermath of 9/11 in a resolute way and getting rid of a dictator is a plus too. But I couldn’t ever vote on good conscience for a man, who’d most likely be in jail if he were Joe Average instead of the president of the USA. Violating the constitution and starting wars of aggression is an instant disqualification to me, no matter how good your track record is. ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/95 "2004-09-13T09:39:45Z")
> [@qts](#): > > Sometimes governments need to act illegally. Funny thing, I just listed that as a reason for instant disqualification, but if that’s your opinion, then it’s no wonder you’re fond of Bush. I tend to disagree though, once governments start acting illegally, it’s time for the population to legally overthrow them. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/96 "2004-09-13T10:14:19Z")
> [@qts](#): > > The article you cite about BCCI is biased in the extreme - and, to be fair, makes no bones about it. You’d have done better to cite the official record, which I’ve skimmed. But all I can glean re Kerry is that Kerry chaired the hearings. I’ve yet to find much info on what happenned beforehand. > > I’ve looked at your Iran-Contra link and that’s actually a negative for me since I support the fight against Communism. > [@qts](#): > > No: Kerry’s aim seemed to be more to discredit than do good and I don’t call that strong character. If you read the Iran-Contra link it explains the lead-in to BCCI: > [@The Boston Globe](#): > > In an off-shoot of the contra-drug investigation, Kerry examined reports that Panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega was involved in drug trafficking. The probe led to information that Noriega was shipping money out of Panama with the help of a bank called BCCI – which prompted yet another Kerry investigation… > > Kerry’s investigation, launched in 1988, helped to close the bank three years later, but not without upsetting some in Washington’s Democratic establishment. Prominent BCCI friends included former Defense Secretary Clark Clifford, former President Jimmy Carter, and his budget director, Bert Lance. When news broke that Clifford’s Washington bank was a shell for BCCI – and how the silver-haired Democrat had handsomely profited in the scheme – some of Kerry’s Senate colleagues grew icy… > > Years later, Kerry says he was “shocked . . .(and) surprised” but “resigned that you had to go in and let the chips fall where they may” when he discovered that Clifford and other prominent Democrats had become involved with BCCI… > > He defends his decision to treat Clifford courteously: “There was a balance of what I thought was decency. I am one of those kids who grew up watching Joseph Welch respond to Joe McCarthy and I remember his line about decency.” (In 1954, Welch, an attorney for the US Army, replied to Senator Joseph McCarthy’s latest red-baiting accusations with the words: “Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?”) > > “I thought we had proven the points we needed,” Kerry says of the Clifford inquiry. “We had got the testimony that was essential. And I didn’t see any reason to cross the line of what I considered to be necessary.” Do you really still believe it was “more an attempt to discredit than do good”? > [@qts](#): > > As an aside, I think there was a woeful lack of judgement by many, including Kerry on Iran-Contra - some things need to be done on the black. Once it became the train-wreck that it did, it should have been quickly and quietly closed down. [Train-wreck? What train-wreck?](http://www.fair.org/extra/0109/iran-contra.html) That train still runs through this current admin: > [@](#): > > **Scandal? What Scandal? > Bush’s Iran-Contra appointees are barely a story** > > But with a few admirable exceptions, news stories about Elliot Abrams, John Negroponte and Otto Reich have largely relied on past reporting and he-said, she-said soundbites by the usual supporters and critics, rather than in-depth investigations into their complicity in one of the bloodiest scandals of the past 20 years. And their guilt is based not on speculation or gossip, but on hard evidence that they aided torturers and death squads, circumvented Congress and the Constitution, and deceived the American people… > > News reporting on Elliott Abrams has been so sparse and pallid as to give hope to war criminals everywhere. Like Negroponte, Abrams maintains ignorance when not boasting that his policy was a “fabulous achievement” (Washington Post, 3/21/93)… > > It’s not as if hard evidence and gruesome details of Abrams’ knowledge and culpability are difficult to find. The man was convicted in open hearings and remains brazenly unrepentant. He called his prosecutors “filthy bastards,” the proceedings against him “Kafkaesque” and members of the Senate Intelligence Committee “pious clowns,” according to an article in Legal Times (5/30/94). Abrams and his gang got away with it, and use that as a rationale for “a fabulous achievement”. > [@qts](#): > > None of these have been widely publicised - if at all - recently on this side of the Pond. Funny you mention this, because [this](http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1266305,00.html) appeared in _The Guardian_ rather than the US media: > [@The Guardian](#): > > John Kerry’s political education is far deeper than that of senators who have merely legislated. He has journeyed to the heart of darkness many times and emerged to tell the tale. It was not simply that Kerry’s commander in Vietnam was the model of the blood-thirsty bombastic colonel in Apocalypse Now. Kerry’s combat experience didn’t end in the Mekong, but moved into the dangerous realm of high politics. > > From his first appearance on the public stage, giving voice as a decorated officer to the anti-war disillusionment of Vietnam veterans, when Richard Nixon and his dirty-tricks crew targeted him, he has uncovered cancers on the presidency. **This is why the Bush administration fears him. He has explored the dark recesses of contemporary history, often without political reward. Tarred as a “flip flopper” by Bush’s $85m TV ad campaign, Kerry in fact is one of the most consistent politicians of his generation.** > > In his first month as a senator, in January 1985, he discovered the thread that would unravel the Iran-contra scandal… > > From Vietnam onwards, Kerry has probed the inner recesses of government, pursuing a persistent and cumulative investigation into the underside of national security and terrorism. **If the Democrats had held the Senate for a sustained period of time, his proposal to regulate the netherworld of money laundering, which was not enacted, might even have helped stymie al-Qaida.** Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/97 "2004-09-13T14:24:51Z")
> [@qts](#): > > … Sometimes governments need to act illegally. Never. Ever. Not in any country in which I would want to live. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/98 "2004-09-13T15:54:08Z")
> [@qts](#): > > That’s not what I said. The affair should not have become public. In this country, the people have a right to know when our government is selling weapons to our enemies and helping to put cocaine on our streets. But since you say things like this… > [@](#): > > Sometimes governments need to act illegally. … it’s clear you either don’t understand democracy (which requires that government be under the Rule of Law), or you just don’t give a shit. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/99 "2004-09-13T16:30:58Z")
> [@qts](#): > > Sometimes governments need to act illegally. In this country, _nobody_ is above the law. Are U.K. citizens allowed to perform illegal actions if they are members of the government? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008/100 "2004-09-13T16:36:09Z")
I was amazed before Sept 11 that people somehow defended the Reagan admin selling arms to terrorists. It’s beyond belief that people continue to defend it now. I have to hand it to truly genius GOP spin doctors. I cannot even imagine what would have happened to a dem president who was caught arming terrorists. Hell, they can’t even get away with lying about a blowjob without getting impeached. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-ill-be-voting-republican/264008.md?page=6)