# Once Again Romney Says The Same Thing As Obama But Claims It's Different **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 26, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484 "2012-07-26T19:28:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484/21 "2012-07-27T18:04:37Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Guantanamo. Well, you got me there. That’s a flip flop. See? I’m not entirely unreasonable. Hey, whaddaya know? Honest debate can even happen here in **Elections**. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484/22 "2012-07-27T18:29:01Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There is not a single problem with Mitt Romney that doesn’t apply just as much to the President. Setting aside the question of flip-flopping for the moment, here are a few problems that Mitt Romney has that do not apply to the President: - Lack of charisma - Wealthy background, and inability to recognize how attitudes based on that background may play to the 99% - Being poorly perceived outside of the U.S. - Being a businessman Personally I find flip-flopping to be pretty much of a non-issue. People do change their minds, for all sorts of reasons. I find the other problems with Romney to be much more significant. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484/23 "2012-07-27T20:17:41Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Personally I find flip-flopping to be pretty much of a non-issue. People do change their minds, for all sorts of reasons. I find the other problems with Romney to be much more significant. This is true; it’s not the flip-flopping itself, but what it indicates about the candidate. Romney’s can be plausibly interpreted as pandering to whatever constituency he’s depending on to win–that etch-a-sketch comment by a staffer IMO is a clincher. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484/24 "2012-07-27T21:12:06Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Are we talking about the President, the only man in history to do a flip-flop-flip(on gay marriage). Not even Romney’s pulled that one off. I don’t see what’s supposed to be the matter with changing one’s mind from being wrong to being right… ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484/25 "2012-07-27T21:16:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There is not a single problem with Mitt Romney that doesn’t apply just as much to the President. The President is a _REPUBLICAN_???!!!??? :eek: Who knew? ---
**Author:** ![nogravity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@nogravity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nogravity)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484/26 "2012-07-27T21:37:12Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > The President is a _REPUBLICAN_???!!!??? :eek: > > Who knew? We all knew. He’s from the Kenyan, socialist, communist, nazi-ist, muslim branch of the Big Tent Party. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484/27 "2012-07-28T00:59:51Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I don’t see what’s supposed to be the matter with changing one’s mind from being wrong to being right… Why did he go from right to wrong to right again? At any point was his position in disagreement with the majority of voters he was trying to reach? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484/28 "2012-07-28T02:24:33Z")
This is pretty stupid. His goal is to get out by end of 2014. A goal is something you shoot for, but might not make. Obama has set an absolute exit date. That’s not a goal-- it’s a done deal. Romney is saying that if facts on the ground dictate otherwise, he will adjust the goal. Have none of you ever set a goal before that you didn’t meet? n.b.: I’m with Obama on this. I want out no matter what. If we could, I’d get out now. I don’t support Romney’s plan, but I can understand it without supporting it. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2012, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484/29 "2012-07-28T04:12:34Z")
I think the reality though is that both candidates will be responding mainly to the facts on the ground and the advice of military commanders. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484/30 "2012-07-28T05:09:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > This is pretty stupid. His goal is to get out by end of 2014. A goal is something you shoot for, but might not make. Obama has set an absolute exit date. That’s not a goal-- it’s a done deal. Romney is saying that if facts on the ground dictate otherwise, he will adjust the goal. > > Have none of you ever set a goal before that you didn’t meet? > > n.b.: I’m with Obama on this. I want out no matter what. If we could, I’d get out now. I don’t support Romney’s plan, but I can understand it without supporting it. You have _got_ to be kidding me. Mitt Romney said his goal is exactly the same thing as what the President and Hamid Karzai have already laid out, and you’re really going to pretend that that’s somehow _different_? Are you seriously suggesting that President Obama would just yank every last combat troop out of Afghanistan if some event occurred that would indicate that wasn’t a wise move? … because of a _calendar date_? For _real_? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2012, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484/31 "2012-07-28T06:20:24Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Are you seriously suggesting that President Obama would just yank every last combat troop out of Afghanistan if some event occurred that would indicate that wasn’t a wise move? Yes. That’s what he said he would do, and I hope he keeps that commitment. Do you want to keep troops in Afghanistan longer? Do you think that keeping US troops there for x number of months more is going to make any difference? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2012, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484/32 "2012-07-28T06:31:29Z")
I would say that depends on what we need to accomplish there. Afghanistan isn’t Iraq. We went in there in response to a direct attack on this country. Much of the enemy is still there and has not surrendered or been eradicated. Elective wars like Iraq and Vietnam can just be ended when we decide we don’t like fighting them anymore. Wars in response to direct attacks, we don’t have that option. The enemy decides when we’re done, by surrendering or dying. Now one could say that for all intents and purposes, Al qaeda is done and the Taliban is no longer a threat. Just be sure you’re right, because it’ll be awfully expensive to pull up stakes in Afghanistan just to go back a few years from now. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2012, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484/33 "2012-07-28T12:18:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I think the reality though is that both candidates will be responding mainly to the facts on the ground and the advice of military commanders. And now we come full circle back to the OP’s title ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484/34 "2012-07-28T15:15:54Z")
No, I think (hope) that Obama realizes there will never be a “good” time to leave, that Afghanistan is a lost cause, and that we just need to get out. There isn’t really any way to prove that their military is ready, and all he has to do is show head count to demonstrate that they have enough men to do whatever job they’re supposed to do. That is not to say we won’t have “advisers” there for a long time, but we need to stop the deaths and our NATO partners are not going to hang around to help us any longer anyway. Americans want out, and Romney is a fool for thinking it’s good policy or good politics to prolong our combat involvement there. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484/35 "2012-07-28T15:21:52Z")
I recognize that most Americans and the political class side with you on this. And you’re probably right. But what if you’re wrong? What if Al Qaeda and the Taliban regroup in our absence and launch another attack on US soil? The only options will be unacceptable: either we go back and do it all over again, or we just let them get away with it. If we leave, does that mean Al Qaeda and the Taliban are no longer at war with us? We might want to ask them what their plans are, since we’re leaving a hostile force intact that has already demonstrated a willingness to come to our doorstep. This will be the first time in history the US has left the battlefield with the enemy still in the field fighting, in a war in which we were attacked first. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484/36 "2012-07-28T20:06:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I recognize that most Americans and the political class side with you on this. And you’re probably right. But what if you’re wrong? What if Al Qaeda and the Taliban regroup in our absence and launch another attack on US soil? The only options will be unacceptable: either we go back and do it all over again, or we just let them get away with it. If AQ sets up training camps again in Afghanistan, we send in the drones. That’s what we’re doing in Pakistan and Yemen. If the Taliban take over again in Afghanistan, that’s their problem, not ours. > [@](#): > > If we leave, does that mean Al Qaeda and the Taliban are no longer at war with us? We might want to ask them what their plans are, since we’re leaving a hostile force intact that has already demonstrated a willingness to come to our doorstep. > > This will be the first time in history the US has left the battlefield with the enemy still in the field fighting, in a war in which we were attacked first. No. AQ is in Pakistan, not Afghanistan. The Taliban is not AQ. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484/37 "2012-07-28T21:28:40Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Much of the enemy is still there and has not surrendered or been eradicated. Care to delineate the extent of the Taliban’s involvement in the direct attack on America? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484/38 "2012-07-28T21:54:19Z")
[Polls show](http://pollingreport.com/afghan.htm) Republicans about evenly split on the should we stay or should we go question, but Independents are almost identical to Democrats with overwhelming agreement that we should get the hell outta there. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484/39 "2012-07-29T04:07:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If AQ sets up training camps again in Afghanistan, we send in the drones. That’s what we’re doing in Pakistan and Yemen. If the Taliban take over again in Afghanistan, that’s their problem, not ours. Drones require human intelligence on the ground to be effective. Otherwise they are only marginally more useful than cruise missiles. > [@](#): > > No. AQ is in Pakistan, not Afghanistan. The Taliban is not AQ. They are attached at the hip. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2012, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484/40 "2012-07-29T04:09:49Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Care to delineate the extent of the Taliban’s involvement in the direct attack on America? that’s like making me prove that the Lebanese government or Iran are responsible for Hezbollah attacks. In the case of Lebanon, Hezbollah is part of the government, and therefore as responsible for Hezbollah’s actions as the US would be if the Republican Party had a terrorist wing attacking other countries. Likewise, the Taliban and al qaeda were close allies running Afghanistan together. Al Qaeda was effectively part of the government. And we found out just how intertwined they were when we tried to get the Taliban to give up al Qaeda. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-again-romney-says-the-same-thing-as-obama-but-claims-its-different/629484.md?page=3)