# Once Agains the Pessimists Are Wrong \[Iraq elections\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2010, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987 "2010-03-27T03:34:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/101 "2010-04-07T04:02:50Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > we don’t want you here. Even if we _promise_ to do better for you than we did for New Orleans? Your country could become a shining beacon of hope to the downtrodden etc. etc. etc. 😉 Cleaning up our own mess does seem the _saner_ option for us here, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/102 "2010-04-12T01:29:35Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > I can’t speak for Darfur but we don’t want you here. Why don’t you clean up your own mess, starting with your idiotic drug prohibition? You know what? I support legalizing marijuana but certainly not (any reasonable person will agree) hard drugs. The drug wars has spread to kill American citizens and the Mexican government has proven incapable of suppressing it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/103 "2010-04-12T01:38:48Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > You know what? I support legalizing marijuana but certainly not (any reasonable person will agree) hard drugs. There certainly are reasonable people who say some or all hard drugs should be legalized in some fashion as well. It’s not like making them illegal has stopped their use. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > The drug wars has spread to kill American citizens and the Mexican government has proven incapable of suppressing it. Because we are funding their criminals with our drug money, and arming them with our lax gun laws. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/104 "2010-04-12T01:40:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > There certainly are reasonable people who say some or all hard drugs should be legalized in some fashion as well. It’s not like making them illegal has stopped their use. The use of hard drugs is relatively minimal and limited to antisocial types of the population. > [@](#): > > Because we are funding their criminals with our drug money, and arming them with our lax gun laws. Than we should crack down and punish drug dealers, users, and smugglers along with those who smuggle guns to criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/105 "2010-04-12T02:00:23Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > 1.The use of hard drugs is relatively minimal and limited to antisocial types of the population. > > 2.Than we should crack down and punish drug dealers, users, and smugglers along with those who smuggle guns to criminals. 1. You don’t get out much, do you? 2. That’s brilliant! If only somebody had thought of doing that years ago we wouldn’t have a drugs problem now. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/106 "2010-04-12T02:19:58Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > You know what? I support legalizing marijuana but certainly not (any reasonable person will agree) hard drugs. The drug wars has spread to kill American citizens and the Mexican government has proven incapable of suppressing it. So? We have no more business sending U.S. troops into Mexico to catch drug dealers, **without the Mexican government’s permission,** than General Pershing had [chasing Pancho Villa into Chihuaha](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancho_Villa_Expedition) without the Mexican government’s permission. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/107 "2010-04-12T02:58:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So? We have no more business sending U.S. troops into Mexico to catch drug dealers, **without the Mexican government’s permission,** than General Pershing had [chasing Pancho Villa into Chihuaha](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancho_Villa_Expedition) without the Mexican government’s permission. Pancho Villa attacked American soil-that is more than enough reason to intervene in Mexico considering it was in chaos at that time. Plus the Mexican government has proven incapable in this crisis and if we intervene subtly I don’t think they will care that much. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/108 "2010-04-12T03:01:28Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Pancho Villa attacked American soil-that is more than enough reason to intervene in Mexico considering it was in chaos at that time. Plus the Mexican government has proven incapable in this crisis and if we intervene subtly I don’t think they will care that much. “Subtly”? How can we intervene in a way that is both “subtle” and will make a difference? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/109 "2010-04-12T03:02:38Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Plus the Mexican government has proven incapable in this crisis and if we intervene subtly I don’t think they will care that much. :rolleyes: Of course they’ll mind, the same as we would if Mexico started intervening on American soil. And how exactly could we intervene subtly and make any difference? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/110 "2010-04-12T03:09:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: Of course they’ll mind, the same as we would if Mexico started intervening on American soil. And how exactly could we intervene subtly and make any difference? Assassination or kidnapping drug lords. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/111 "2010-04-12T03:16:13Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Assassination or kidnapping drug lords. Meaningless, even assuming we could do that very well. What, do you think they are the source of the problem? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/112 "2010-04-13T14:03:42Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > You know what? I support legalizing marijuana but certainly not (any reasonable person will agree) hard drugs. The drug wars has spread to kill American citizens and the Mexican government has proven incapable of suppressing it. Why blame us? Guess who started the drug war? The USA. So now that a few Americans have been victims of the violence you believe you have the right to intervene in our country? You are foolish to believe that intervention, which will only increase the violence, will succeed. And more of your young will die for nothing as is usual when you settle for a violent solution. You created the problem, now get rid of it. End your ridiculous prohibition. Stop legislating personal morality. In other words, start minding your own business for a change. And have you ever paused to think why do you Americans need so many drugs to get you thru life? Maybe you should work on an improvement of your culture in order to reduce this need. ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/113 "2010-04-13T14:28:31Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > You are foolish to believe that intervention, which will only increase the violence, will succeed. And more of your young will die for nothing as is usual when you settle for a violent solution. You created the problem, now get rid of it. End your ridiculous prohibition. Stop legislating personal morality. In other words, start minding your own business for a change. Not to defend the idea of any kind of police action/military intervention, but nearly all of the same drugs that are illegal in the US are illegal in Mexico. It was only fairly recently that Mexico decriminalized the possession of small amounts of most drugs. Otherwise, it’s still a crime to possess and/or sell large amounts of the same drugs on both sides of the border. As for violent solutions, the cartels are violent and bloody organizations that have connections with prison gangs. They aren’t going to suddenly become “regular” business enterprises if all drugs were magically deemed legal in both the US and Mexico. > [@](#): > > And have you ever paused to think why do you Americans need so many drugs to get you thru life? Maybe you should work on an improvement of your culture in order to reduce this need. While the US certainly could do a lot to “improve” its culture vis-a-vis drugs, Mexico could certainly use some help too - starting with narcocorridos. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/114 "2010-04-13T15:11:41Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Plus the Mexican government has proven incapable in this crisis and if we intervene subtly I don’t think they will care that much. The U.S. has proven “incapable” in nearly twenty years of Reagan-induced drug war and the lower level drug war that preceded this round for twenty years. Surely we should ask Russia or China to subtly intervene in our country on our behalf? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/115 "2010-04-13T16:00:49Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > As for violent solutions, the cartels are violent and bloody organizations that have connections with prison gangs. They aren’t going to suddenly become “regular” business enterprises if all drugs were magically deemed legal in both the US and Mexico. But they’ll suddenly lose most of their cash flow. That would cripple them. I would expect those organizations to drastically shrink or disintegrate rather than become legitimate businesses. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/116 "2010-04-13T16:04:28Z")
It is business. If we wiped out every drug lord and supply line in the world today, new ones would quickly reappear. If there is profit to be made, someone will supply it. Fighting supply and distribution is not attacking the problem at all. It has proven over and over that it will not work. It seems like a logical approach but is merely sophistical. It is an illusion of fighting the drug problem without dealing with the cause. The demand for drugs in America will drive our police and politicians to the dark side. It is the demand that must be dealt with. We need a huge expansion of drug treatment programs, for a start. We need legalization, with taxing and controlling the quality and making it available to the addicted . Our whole drug system is corrupting. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/117 "2010-04-13T16:31:25Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I support legalizing marijuana but certainly not (any reasonable person will agree) hard drugs. This is naive, particularly around here. A lot of people do support the legalization of hard drugs. I tenatively agree with them. I’ll admit to mixed feelings because I’m not sure how much harm it might cause. In any case invading yet another country or assassinating drug lords is not going to solve this problem. That would be similar to trying to stop car sales by killing the CEOs of Ford and GM. If people wanted to buy the cars, someone else would take over the organization and keep selling them. This is not like a war between two countries, where killing the leadership of one country might end the conflict. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/118 "2010-04-13T19:15:06Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > Not to defend the idea of any kind of police action/military intervention, but nearly all of the same drugs that are illegal in the US are illegal in Mexico. It was only fairly recently that Mexico decriminalized the possession of small amounts of most drugs. Otherwise, it’s still a crime to possess and/or sell large amounts of the same drugs on both sides of the border. > > As for violent solutions, the cartels are violent and bloody organizations that have connections with prison gangs. They aren’t going to suddenly become “regular” business enterprises if all drugs were magically deemed legal in both the US and Mexico. > > While the US certainly could do a lot to “improve” its culture vis-a-vis drugs, Mexico could certainly use some help too - starting with narcocorridos. The recent change in our drug laws was passed by our legislation back when Fox was President. Under pressure from the US , Fox vetoed the law. The US government puts heavy pressure on México to not legalize. If we were to do so unilaterally there would be some very hard consequences. The cartels would shrink considerably without the huge sums of money they now enjoy. There is no other crime that comes close to illegal drugs in generating those types of earnings. They wouldn’t have even 10% of the resources they now have to fund the corruption or buy the weaponry. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/119 "2010-04-13T19:34:34Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > It is business. If we wiped out every drug lord and supply line in the world today, new ones would quickly reappear. If there is profit to be made, someone will supply it. Fighting supply and distribution is not attacking the problem at all. It has proven over and over that it will not work. It seems like a logical approach but is merely sophistical. It is an illusion of fighting the drug problem without dealing with the cause. The demand for drugs in America will drive our police and politicians to the dark side. It is the demand that must be dealt with. We need a huge expansion of drug treatment programs, for a start. > We need legalization, with taxing and controlling the quality and making it available to the addicted . Our whole drug system is corrupting. I agree 100%. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/120 "2010-04-13T21:39:36Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > As for violent solutions, the cartels are violent and bloody organizations that have connections with prison gangs. They aren’t going to suddenly become “regular” business enterprises if all drugs were magically deemed legal in both the US and Mexico. No – they would do what the Mob did when Prohibition ended: Move into other fields of criminal enterprise. IOW, they would remain criminals but stop being drug smugglers, just as the bootleggers stopped being bootleggers. A marginal improvement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987.md?page=7)