# Once Agains the Pessimists Are Wrong \[Iraq elections\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2010, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987 "2010-03-27T03:34:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/121 "2010-04-14T00:55:48Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > Why blame us? Guess who started the drug war? The USA. So now that a few Americans have been victims of the violence you believe you have the right to intervene in our country? > > You are foolish to believe that intervention, which will only increase the violence, will succeed. And more of your young will die for nothing as is usual when you settle for a violent solution. You created the problem, now get rid of it. End your ridiculous prohibition. Stop legislating personal morality. In other words, start minding your own business for a change. All humanity is all humanity’s business. > [@](#): > > And have you ever paused to think why do you Americans need so many drugs to get you thru life? Maybe you should work on an improvement of your culture in order to reduce this need. They’re antisocial types. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/122 "2010-04-14T01:32:43Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > All humanity is all humanity’s business. This tautology doesn’t justify taking a war over the border into another country. In fact it doesn’t justify anything at all; it’s just glib. > [@](#): > > They’re antisocial types. Everybody who uses drugs? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/123 "2010-04-14T02:03:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This tautology doesn’t justify taking a war over the border into another country. In fact it doesn’t justify anything at all; it’s just glib. > Everybody who uses drugs? No, people who are addicted to or abuse drugs, especially hard drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/124 "2010-04-14T02:07:03Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > No, people who are addicted to or abuse drugs, especially hard drugs. Abuse of drugs has nothing to do with being antisocial. Addictive drugs will addict you just as much no matter how antisocial or not you are. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/125 "2010-04-14T02:07:25Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > No, people who are addicted to or abuse drugs, especially hard drugs. :dubious: No, **Curtis,** such people can perhaps be generalized as a lot of things, but not as “antisocial types.” (Their habit often drives them to antisocial behavior, to be sure, but that’s situational.) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/126 "2010-04-14T02:50:15Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > No, people who are addicted to or abuse drugs, especially hard drugs. Some people who abuse drugs are _too social_, if anything. They can’t stay out of bars or places where people are getting high. I expect you’re using a definition of ‘antisocial’ that exists in your mind and doesn’t have much clinical meaning. Drug addiction is not related to how social a person is. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/127 "2010-04-14T02:51:58Z")
In any case we’re now _way_ off topic. Let’s take the drug war debate to a separate thread. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/128 "2010-04-14T03:06:24Z")
**Curtis,** what was your point in starting this thread anyway? Are you still looking for signs that invading Iraq in the first place was a **good idea?** I would have thought even you would have given up on that a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/129 "2010-04-14T03:38:07Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > No, people who are addicted to or abuse drugs, especially hard drugs. Take a look at this site ([Some eminent narcotics addicts](http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/cu/cu5.html)), Curtis. Then decide if your assertions have any value beyond what you would like to be true. ETA Sorry, Marley, didn’t see your admonition. ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/130 "2010-04-14T03:45:08Z")
I can’t make the cite work. Just Google Dr. William Stewart Halsted and go from there. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/131 "2010-04-14T03:57:10Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > No, people who are addicted to or abuse drugs, especially hard drugs. I have known hard core cokeheads, they are some of the most social people you will ever meet. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/132 "2010-04-14T04:49:17Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > While the US certainly could do a lot to “improve” its culture vis-a-vis drugs, Mexico could certainly use some help too - starting with narcocorridos. [I do not think that word means what you think it means.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcocorrido) Unless you think that there wouldn’t be enough thugs in Mexico to take advantage of the potential high rewards of the drug supply business if they had fewer drug ballads to listen to. But if that’s what you were driving at, I have to admit that I don’t really uderstand what your point is. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/133 "2010-04-14T05:28:49Z")
Invade Mexico? Simply an awesome idea following the overwhelming “Iraq success” your OP brags of. But following the ‘logic’ why stop there? The World’s an American oyster yet to be opened. Where do I subscribe to your newsletter? ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/134 "2010-04-15T12:33:50Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > No, people who are addicted to or abuse drugs, especially hard drugs. This is probably the most ridiculous thing I’ve seen all week. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/135 "2010-04-17T03:13:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > **Curtis,** what was your point in starting this thread anyway? Are you still looking for signs that invading Iraq in the first place was a **good idea?** I would have thought even you would have given up on that a long time ago. No but that the idea that Iraq is a total and irredeemable disaster is equally folly. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/136 "2010-04-17T03:23:56Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > No but that the idea that Iraq is a total and irredeemable disaster is equally folly. Hardly. There’s no realistic result of our actions there that could qualify as anything but disaster. The damage to both Iraq and ourselves has been too great. The dead will stay dead, and the Iraqis will hate us for generations (as well they should). ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/137 "2010-04-17T04:16:32Z")
if you lived in Iraq, you might not see what happened as a blessing. On one side Iran wants to extend their influence and get their hands on Iraqi oil. The Americans want to keep their military bases and influence while controlling the oil in the name of international capitalism. The Saudis do not want the Iranis to extend their influence and get Iraqi oil. The Syrians promote the Bathist agenda and influence . The Iraqis are in an ever changing hot spot, that is not of their making.They have had their educated and wealthy flee American aggression . The schools are shut down and thousands of people have been killed. They have to re-fight the religious power war over women that was once settled differently. The women have been forced back into another century. They have had a horrible infrastructure that did not work well before ,and now is a mess. They have had thousands of men, women and children killed by armies of foreign invaders. Thanks a lot. They have so understand that Iraq is going to become something that profits outsiders at the expense of the Iraqi freedoms and wealth. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2010, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/138 "2010-04-17T04:35:06Z")
> [@](#): > > No but that the idea that Iraq is a total and irredeemable disaster is equally folly. That’s a strawman Curtis. Claiming that things in Iraq are going well as long as they’re not a “total and irredeemable disaster” is ridiculous. What country has ever been a total and irredeemable disaster? You pick the worst country in the history of the world and I’ll tell you a way it could have been worse off. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/139 "2010-04-19T14:17:50Z")
[Secret prison revealed in Baghdad Forces under the office of Prime Minister Maliki held hundreds of Sunni men at the facility. The U.S. fears that the news will stoke instability.](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-iraq-prison19-2010apr19,0,5706408.story) > [@](#): > > Reporting from Baghdad > Hundreds of Sunni men disappeared for months into a secret Baghdad prison under the jurisdiction of Prime Minister Nouri Maliki’s military office, where many were routinely tortured until the country’s Human Rights Ministry gained access to the facility, Iraqi officials say. > > The men were detained by the Iraqi army in October in sweeps targeting Sunni groups in Nineveh province, a stronghold of the group Al Qaeda in Iraq and other militants in the north. The provincial governor alleged at the time that ordinary citizens had been detained as well, often without a warrant. All for the low low cost of a trillion bucks and thousands of dead Americans. You Iraq optimists should be _very_ proud this morning. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987/140 "2010-04-19T14:55:31Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > All for the low low cost of a trillion bucks and thousands of dead Americans. You Iraq optimists should be _very_ proud this morning. [But two Al Qaeda in Iraq guys have been killed!](http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/04/19/prime-minister-leader-of-al-qaeda-in-iraq-killed/?hpt=T2) Of course the longer this ‘it’s going well!’ ‘it’s going badly’ argument goes on, the quicker everybody can lose sight of what a bad idea this was in the first place, thus enabling some future idiot to make the same mistake all over again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-agains-the-pessimists-are-wrong-iraq-elections/533987.md?page=8)