# Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291 "2011-08-11T02:49:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/242 "2011-08-15T23:52:29Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Alcohol is not considered by AA to be “the devil”. Alcohol is not good _for alcoholics_; there is nothing inherently bad about alcohol. Okay, that made me laugh. Alcoholics believe there is nothing bad about alcohol? > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > No one “labels” you forever, and no one tells you not to drink. The only requirement for AA is the _desire_ to stop drinking. Really? Provide a cite for this, please. I beg to differ about the labeling part. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/243 "2011-08-15T23:58:35Z")
Also, you may want to rephrase that because the way you said it makes no sense. This is how you phrased it: no one tells not to drink in AA but AA wants you to stop drinking. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/244 "2011-08-16T00:05:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > edited to add: Does AA encourage the newcomer to seek _professional help_ to try to moderate the drinking? No, it does not. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/245 "2011-08-16T00:23:27Z")
> [@OneMissedPost](#): > > Okay, that made me laugh. > > Alcoholics believe there is nothing bad about alcohol? AA does not teach that alcohol is “the devil” What alcoholics believe is their own business. > [@](#): > > Really? Provide a cite for this, please. I beg to differ about the labeling part. Well, for one, there are no leaders in AA, so there is no one to tell you what you are. There is just a room full of people with the desire to stop drinking, sharing their experiences with alcohol. > [@OneMissedPost](#): > > Also, you may want to rephrase that because the way you said it makes no sense. This is how you phrased it: no one tells not to drink in AA but AA wants you to stop drinking. AA does not tell anyone to stop drinking. AA doesn’t “want” anyone to stop drinking. AA has a way to quit drinking, if that is what you want. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/246 "2011-08-16T00:57:38Z")
> [@Scotty Mo](#): > > But how can somebody with a problem control it sometimes? Because one can have a drinking problem but _not_ have the condition that some call a disease–alcoholism. IOW, if you have a drinking problem you should get help with it. But be very careful who you get that help from. Many (most?) caregivers will be inclined to strongly suggest (insist, really) that you go to AA and that might not be the best form of help for you. Be sure to see someone who understands that people can have certain issues with alcohol that do not necessitate never drinking a single drop ever again. Try to find a caregiver who is not a 12-Stepper themselves. Those practitioners are known as “two-hatters” because they are acting both as your caregiver and probably also as an active recruiter for AA at the same time (an inherent conflict of interest). NOTE: They would be an active recruiter only if they are diligently following the 12th step which is: **12) Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, _we tried to carry this message to alcoholics_, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.** (Italics mine) ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/247 "2011-08-16T01:04:13Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > AA does not teach that alcohol is “the devil” > > there are no leaders in AA. You sure about that? Some people argue that AA is very similar to a religious cult. I’m sure there is a hierarchy of some kind. How about people who have been sober longer than others? Are more people willing to listen to people who have been sober longer than others? That would be an interesting study. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > AA doesn’t “want” anyone to stop drinking. > > . Really? Then what do they want? Tell me what they want people to do. I bet it doesn’t involve drinking. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > AA has a way to quit drinking, if that is what you want. Yes, I’ve already answered this. The way to quit drinking is via the 12 steps. The belief that the 12 steps will help someone stop drinking. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/248 "2011-08-16T01:18:40Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > I didn’t mean to suggest that methadone is a cure, or that it doesn’t have serious side effects. It is a very controversial issu, and methadone maintainence is not something I’d ever suggest someone enter into lightly. It has a great success rate when administered properly and monitored by professionals, but like I said before, it’s a risk management type of treatment, not a cure. > > Well, yeah, again, that’s why methadone treatment is done at clinics where patients start out by going in every day for their dose, not given medication to take home until they have done certain things and pass their drug tests, etc. > > The other drugs I was talking about for alcoholism aren’t controlled substances, as far as I know. My point was that I like the direction addiction treatment is headed, and hopefully, with more research and development, the drugs will only get better and better. I’d like to see a cite for the claim that methadone maintenance has a great success rate-if administered “properly and monitored by officials”. What does “success rate” even mean? Success _while_ being “properly administered and monitored”? Is this program of administration and monitoring of methadone meant to be a lifelong responsibility? Because the overall success rates of overcoming _ **heroin addiction** _, with or without methadone maintenance, are abysmal at best. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/249 "2011-08-16T01:44:58Z")
> [@OneMissedPost](#): > > You sure about that? Some people argue that AA is very similar to a religious cult. I am an atheist, and I had no problem with it. The higher power thing does not have to be an omnipotent god, you know… > [@](#): > > I’m sure there is a hierarchy of some kind. The most important person is the guy who makes the coffee. That is the the extent of the hierarchy. > [@](#): > > How about people who have been sober longer than others? Are more people willing to listen to people who have been sober longer than others? Yes, because they are usually the ones who have been successful the longest. But even new people can be the source of wisdom that others will find useful. You take what works, and leave the rest. Don’t worry about the other guy’s program. What works for him, might not work for you, and vice versa. If anyone is judging you, they are not working the steps right. > [@](#): > > Really? Then what do they want? They want to share their experiences with alcohol and how they are trying to quit drinking. > [@](#): > > Tell me what they want people to do. You seem to be hung up on what some imagined authority in AA wants people to do; in as much as there is any desired behavior, it is to share your experiences so that others may gain wisdom in their desire to quit drinking. > [@](#): > > I bet it doesn’t involve drinking. You are right about that, but for the wrong reason. > [@](#): > > Yes, I’ve already answered this. The way to quit drinking is via the 12 steps. The belief that the 12 steps will help someone stop drinking. Yes, except the 12 steps are _a way_ to quit drinking, not _the only way_. If you find a better, easier way, you will get nothing but good wishes from AA. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/250 "2011-08-16T02:12:18Z")
**Fear Itself** , You have yet to show me any literature to back up your claims. According to [Bufe (1998)](http://home.earthlink.net/~bbaa.library/AA_Cult_or_Cure.pdf), many people follow the 12 steps because it provides structure and the belief in the “Higher Power” helps many solve their problems. In reality, many people who have attended AA experience a radical religious conversion or change in personality. The fact that you didn’t experience one of those changes indicates to me that you are one of the rare exceptions. There are always exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/251 "2011-08-16T02:15:59Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The most important person is the guy who makes the coffee. That is the the extent of the hierarchy. Yes, that’s very funny, but I would like to see evidence of this. I have my doubts about your claims. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/252 "2011-08-16T02:39:21Z")
> [@OneMissedPost](#): > > Yes, that’s very funny, but I would like to see evidence of this. In addition to the 12 Steps, AA is founded on the [Twelve Traditions](http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_appendicei.cfm). Tradition Two states: > [@](#): > > _Two—For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern._ Tradition Nine states: > [@](#): > > _A.A., as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve._ > [@](#): > > I have my doubts about your claims. Why not attend a public AA meeting, and find out for yourself? ---
**Author:** ![pinkyvee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@pinkyvee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinkyvee)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/253 "2011-08-16T02:49:16Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > ..The most important person is the guy who makes the coffee. That is the the extent of the hierarchy. This is so funny, and so TRUE. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/254 "2011-08-16T03:25:56Z")
> [@OneMissedPost](#): > > In reality, many people who have attended AA experience a radical religious conversion or change in personality. I am sure there are many people you come in contact who have been to AA meetings, yet you have no idea. AA is not the People’s Temple. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/255 "2011-08-16T03:28:32Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I am sure there are many people you come in contact who have been to AA meetings, yet you have no idea. AA is not the People’s Temple. I do believe a “hell yeah” is in order here. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/256 "2011-08-16T13:03:33Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > It seems that you may be unfamiliar with what the steps are. This may help(this is NA’s version, but the others are very similar, only one or two words changed): It is pretty well accepted that you cannot take the 1st step if you currently intoxicated. Actually, I wasn’t interested in a recitation of the 12 steps. What I’m interested in is **Oakminster** statement that the disease model of alcoholism allows those with drinking problems to unburden themselves of any responsibility for their actions. He prefers to apply “tough love,” which, he says, contrasts with the disease model by holding the alcoholic responsible for his actions instead of allowing him to shift blame to a disease, making himself faultless. This is a similar approach to Oakminster’s – > [@RedFury](#): > > Disease. Powerless. Healing up to whimsical Higher Power. Must never forget. So this is the thrust of my inquiry. Is it true that the disease model is intended to or effectively operates to remove any sense of responsibility for an alcoholic’s actions? If not, then why does there seem to be, on the part of some people, this attitude or reaction to the disease model? It seems to me that people like Oakminster think that the disease model is letting alcoholics get away with something. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/257 "2011-08-16T15:30:15Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I am sure there are many people you come in contact who have been to AA meetings, yet you have no idea. AA is not the People’s Temple. Literature says otherwise. Sorry, I’m more inclined to trust literature over an individual’s experience. People that are pro-AA saying that AA is not what literature claims it is will not convince me that there is no hidden agenda. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/258 "2011-08-16T15:36:19Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > In addition to the 12 Steps, AA is founded on the [Twelve Traditions](http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_appendicei.cfm). > > Tradition Two states:Tradition Nine states:Why not attend a public AA meeting, and find out for yourself? That only supports my claim that the Higher Power is God and there is a solid belief system. I think it’s safe to say that you are posting for the sake of posting without even listening to my arguments and reading the cite that I have provided. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/259 "2011-08-16T16:40:02Z")
Have you ever been to an AA meeting? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/260 "2011-08-16T17:00:51Z")
> [@Scotty Mo](#): > > Have you ever been to an AA meeting? Is he going to find something that differs greatly from the official AA publications if he does? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/261 "2011-08-16T18:33:51Z")
> [@OneMissedPost](#): > > People that are pro-AA saying that AA is not what literature claims it is will not convince me that there is no hidden agenda. Of that I have no doubt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291.md?page=14)