# Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291 "2011-08-11T02:49:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/282 "2011-08-16T21:25:37Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > [Redirect Notice](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fmotorvehiclesafety%2Fimpaired_driving%2Fimpaired-drv_factsheet.html&ei=RN1KTrqFCsLr0QGCvvjqBw&usg=AFQjCNFlKTczajiTqUrGttwBFfljcL5WnA) > > Here’s another…This one says “every 48 seconds”, not every 30. Ok, thank you very much for providing that cite. 🙂 So, 1 every 48 seconds… How has AA impacted this ratio? Is that a fair question to ask? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/283 "2011-08-16T21:36:23Z")
> [@OneMissedPost](#): > > I’m asking for cites. And my questions were looking into why demanding such cites was necessary. > [@](#): > > And I never made any of those claims. What claims? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/284 "2011-08-16T22:53:32Z")
Ridiculous. Then again it always is despite that this is a site that purports to “fight ignorance.” Point being, as has been said over and over in threads that touch on this topic is that when it comes to controlling and/or curing (let’s leave the disease debate aside maybe for another thread) addiction, AA is simply no better than NO TREATMENT at all. Want cites? Feel free to do your own research, because no matter what is posted, True Believers --and boy are they ever! – will counter anything and everything given by either attacking the source or by providing some anecdotal evidence either about themselves or “someone they know in the program.” Works for you? Fine and dandy, stay with the drunkalogues and your chosen HPs - I believe a chair makes a fine choice for one – but don’t keep peddling a cultist program based on nothing but superstition as a solve-all for a very real and treatable problem, that yes (please don’t faint) CAN & HAS been overcome by an overwhelming amount of people _outside_ of AA. Hell, dig into Agent Orange at will. But try to rebut his figures: [**The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment**](http://www.morerevealed.com/aadep/reclaim/orange-effectiveness.html) Lastly, as someone who attended AA meetings for close to three months (the whole 90 in 90 shtick) for anyone that says there’s no "greater hierarchy in AA than the guy who makes coffee…pull the other one. I not only saw the infamous thirteen-stepping at work, but was offered all sorts of tips on how to go about it myself. In fact, I saw many a sponsor act in ways that would make a Master/Dominant in a Ds relation cringe. And I did. But hey! It works if you work it so work it! Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/285 "2011-08-16T23:27:05Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Want cites? Feel free to do your own research, because no matter what is posted, True Believers --and boy are they ever! – The same could be said to those who INSIST, not matter what, that AA is a cult. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/286 "2011-08-17T00:31:25Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What claims? Oh boy… :rolleyes: > [@RedFury](#): > > Ridiculous. Then again it always is despite that this is a site that purports to “fight ignorance.” Point being, as has been said over and over in threads that touch on this topic is that when it comes to controlling and/or curing (let’s leave the disease debate aside maybe for another thread) addiction, AA is simply no better than NO TREATMENT at all. > > Want cites? Feel free to do your own research, because no matter what is posted, True Believers --and boy are they ever! – will counter anything and everything given by either attacking the source or by providing some anecdotal evidence either about themselves or “someone they know in the program.” > > Works for you? Fine and dandy, stay with the drunkalogues and your chosen HPs - I believe a chair makes a fine choice for one – but don’t keep peddling a cultist program based on nothing but superstition as a solve-all for a very real and treatable problem, that yes (please don’t faint) CAN & HAS been overcome by an overwhelming amount of people _outside_ of AA. > > Hell, dig into Agent Orange at will. But try to rebut his figures: > > [**The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment**](http://www.morerevealed.com/aadep/reclaim/orange-effectiveness.html) > > Lastly, as someone who attended AA meetings for close to three months (the whole 90 in 90 shtick) for anyone that says there’s no "greater hierarchy in AA than the guy who makes coffee…pull the other one. I not only saw the infamous thirteen-stepping at work, but was offered all sorts of tips on how to go about it myself. In fact, I saw many a sponsor act in ways that would make a Master/Dominant in a Ds relation cringe. And I did. > > But hey! It works if you work it so work it! > > Whatever. This. Thanks. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > The same could be said to those who INSIST, not matter what, that AA is a cult. Because it is. Provide evidence despite personal experience that tells me otherwise. All the “facts” given by the pro-AA posters were exaggerated at best… and boy, were they ever exaggerated. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/287 "2011-08-17T11:31:50Z")
> [@OneMissedPost](#): > > Oh boy… :rolleyes: I’m not sure what the rolleyes are about. Here’s the exchange between us: > [@me](#): > > OneMissedPost, do you accept as given that there is some nonzero cost to society resulting from misuse of alcohol and that some nonzero number of deaths are caused by misuse of alcohol? Do you further accept that some nonzero number of people, who would otherwise have continued to use alcohol, stop misusing alcohol by following the A.A. program? > [@you](#): > > I’m asking for cites. > > And I never made any of those claims. Where in that exchange are there any claims? It’s not my fault if you post without context. ---
**Author:** ![Bloodless\_Turnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bloodless\_Turnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bloodless_Turnip)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/288 "2011-08-17T14:32:24Z")
AA is not a cult. Good grief. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/289 "2011-08-17T14:37:19Z")
It’s one thing to say that A.A. is ineffective. It’s a completely different thing to say that it’s a cult. If you’re making the claim that it’s a cult, it’s up to you to: (1) Specify what commonly understood definition of “cult” you mean, and (2) Come up with evidence. “I know it’s a cult and it’s your burden to give me citations proving it isn’t a cult” is a backwards approach to this issue. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/290 "2011-08-17T16:07:22Z")
> [@Scotty Mo](#): > > Well, they might seem pretty weak to you. But for me, on weekend nights, I have one of two choices: sit at home and do nothing. Or go out with some friends, have a good time, and hopefully meet a nice girl. Now which one sounds more appealing? Hmmm??? If you haven’t figured out how to go out with your friends and have a good time without excessive drinking then you do have a problem. As a musician in a bar band I drank too much. Every so often I’d quit for a few months just to show myself I could. I attended a few AA meetings at one point but it wasn’t for me. Now that I’m older I don’t drink as often but I recognize that it could easily be a problem. When I’m at a party with friends I feel the old me calling and still occasionally over indulge. I feel much better when I have 1 or 2 and then talk a long break before the drive home. I know we often perceive ourselves as having a better time and loosening up after a few drinks but we should be able to have 1 or 2 {or even none} and enjoy ourselves and our friends just as much. If you really believe you can’t I’s say that’s an indication of a problem. Try quitting for a month or two or going out and limiting yourself to 1 or 2. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/291 "2011-08-17T16:17:15Z")
> [@Scotty Mo](#): > > Well, they might seem pretty weak to you. But for me, on weekend nights, I have one of two choices: sit at home and do nothing. Or go out with some friends, have a good time, and hopefully meet a nice girl. Now which one sounds more appealing? Hmmm??? > [@cosmosdan](#): > > If you haven’t figured out how to go out with your friends and have a good time without excessive drinking then you do have a problem. You are not the only one in this thread that has done this, but I don’t believe I see the word “excessive”( or anything even remotely close to that word) anywhere in his post. Why the assumption that going out and drinking with friends automatically means that you’re going to end up blotto? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/292 "2011-08-17T16:22:36Z")
The OP said “I do have a hard time handling alcohol.” Other than that he’s been pretty stingy with specifics. And he hasn’t deigned to answer some basic questions about his situation, such as why he seems tomthink that the sole alternative to drinking is sitting at home alone doing nothing. ---
**Author:** ![thatguyjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6de8d8/32.png) [@thatguyjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thatguyjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/293 "2011-08-17T17:09:21Z")
To OneMissedPost: A lot of what some folks are posting is snips/cites from the book of AA (the “Big Book”). Taken by themselves, they are subject to varying interpretations. One must look at the body as a whole. There are many abstract concepts in the Big Book which will require elaboration/detail in order to fully understand certain program concepts. As to whether AA is a cult or not - going by the dictionary definition of cult, AA certainly fits. I don’t think it’s possible to argue against that. I believe you may be using the term to describe a malicious organization that takes advantage of its members by attempting to deceive them for the financial benefit of one person or a small group of people. This is not true. ---
**Author:** ![gurujulp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba9def/32.png) [@gurujulp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gurujulp)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/294 "2011-08-17T18:06:19Z")
> [@Bloodless\_Turnip](#): > > AA is not a cult. Good grief. > [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s one thing to say that A.A. is ineffective. It’s a completely different thing to say that it’s a cult. If you’re making the claim that it’s a cult, it’s up to you to: > > (1) Specify what commonly understood definition of “cult” you mean, and > (2) Come up with evidence. > > “I know it’s a cult and it’s your burden to give me citations proving it isn’t a cult” is a backwards approach to this issue. No one has responded to my post [#65](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14127757&postcount=65), but the only reason AA isn’t a cult is because there isn’t a requirement to worship anything. It does what it does because it is brainwashing one’s self clean, if you follow the steps and actually do them. I agree with one of the other posters from above, it is just better than saying, “Fuck it!” and not trying to get help. For many, who don’t want to give other people or things control of their lives, and no reason they should, it won’t work. Oh, well. AA doesn’t promise to fix you unless you try it wholeheartedly, and trying it _truly_ is being willing to give up a bunch of things that don’t have anything to do with drinking, but are part of one’s personality. If you don’t want to, then do not! It is a hard thing to do, and you really have to be at rock bottom to be willing to change yourself so completely. If you don’t get there, then don’t worry about it! Why is everyone so het up about it? It is always the individual’s choice to do it or not do it. I don’t agree with court-ordered AA, but you don’t have to do anything other than show up, and it is easier to deal with than other things the courts order sometimes. Just saw **thatguyjeff** ’s post, and I disagree, pending seeing your definition- a cult has to have an object of worship- what would that be? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/295 "2011-08-17T18:24:15Z")
> [@gurujulp](#): > > No one has responded to my post [#65](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14127757&postcount=65), but the only reason AA isn’t a cult is because there isn’t a requirement to worship anything.\ By what definition of “cult”? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/296 "2011-08-17T18:26:09Z")
> [@gurujulp](#): > > Just saw **thatguyjeff** ’s post, and I disagree, pending seeing your definition- a cult has to have an object of worship- what would that be? The concept that alcoholism has been, is, and always will be incurable. ---
**Author:** ![gurujulp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba9def/32.png) [@gurujulp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gurujulp)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/297 "2011-08-17T19:14:05Z")
> [@thatguyjeff](#): > > To OneMissedPost: > > A lot of what some folks are posting is snips/cites from the book of AA (the “Big Book”). Taken by themselves, they are subject to varying interpretations. One must look at the body as a whole. There are many abstract concepts in the Big Book which will require elaboration/detail in order to fully understand certain program concepts. > > As to whether AA is a cult or not - going by the dictionary definition of cult, AA certainly fits. I don’t think it’s possible to argue against that. I believe you may be using the term to describe a malicious organization that takes advantage of its members by attempting to deceive them for the financial benefit of one person or a small group of people. This is not true. > [@Acsenray](#): > > By what definition of “cult”? If you look at [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com), definition #4&5: (4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. 5. Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.) _would_ fit AA- I normally think of a cult as definition #1: 1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies. I don’t think that AA is religious worship. Some of the other definitions that are there could and do fit some groups… So I am wrong about what a cult is. So…\* I\* don’t agree with the definitions of cult that include AA- but I do agree that the dictionary definition of cult is different than I thought, and that some of the definitions could fit certain AA groups. So, bottom line: AA, as a whole, doesn’t venerate anything, even its own precepts, so I would disagree that AA is a cult as a whole, but I do agree that certain of the groups that form AA fit the cult definition. How they do that varies, but usually by claiming the ‘Big Book’ is a holy book, and the founders holy men… Or ‘like unto gods’. The men themselves said that was bull, and they were not. I believe the people who wrote the book, who said they were not holy, and it was up to you to choose what to believe in as a higher power- you just had to pick something… Some people picked those guys, and this issue arose. But again, my beliefs don’t matter to whether or not AA is a cult. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > The concept that alcoholism has been, is, and always will be incurable. Bwa-huh? I don’t know anyone who worships or claims to worship that concept. It is a medical belief that some people espouse. I don’t know how it _could_ be worshipped. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![freep5637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/cdc98d/32.png) [@freep5637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freep5637)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/298 "2011-08-17T23:34:28Z")
Once an alcoholic always an alcoholic? In my experience I’d say yes, most certainly. Believe me, I’ve tried to disprove this theory several times over the past decade to no avail. Also, it’s said that it’s not ‘how often one drinks, but what happens when they drink’ that is often a determining factor. I didn’t get in trouble every time that I drank, but every time I ever got in trouble I was most certainly drinking. I’d recommend reading the big book and also the stories in the back. If you can identify with any of these either bill’s story or the other collection you might just be an alcoholic. And you know what? It’s ok, my life has gotten sooooo much better since going to AA and working the steps and trying to help others. I really can’t explain it; I’ve had periods of sobriety spanning years without working a program and they sucked, I was just as miserable as if I’d been drinking. So, that’s my two cents. ---
**Author:** ![freep5637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/cdc98d/32.png) [@freep5637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freep5637)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/299 "2011-08-17T23:52:35Z")
I’d like to refute some of the comments made above as to why AA doesn’t have a higher success rate. I’m not going to cite and this is all anecdotal but here’s why I think that AA doesn’t have the success rate some people want: I’ll compare alcoholism to trying to lose weight due to years of overeating. Most people with a real weight problem have that problem because at some point in their life they turned to food to cope; this is often the case with alcoholics and alcohol. Instead of developing appropriate tools to learn how to cope emotionally these people instead put on weight and the more they put on the more they eat due to a lack of positive self image, depression, fill in the blank. Either way it’s a vicious cycle. Just like an alcoholic they might not over eat every day but when the do watch out! Now take this same person, tell them that in order to lose the weight and keep it off, they have to change things that they ‘know to be true’ in order to succeed. They have to change eradicate and adjust core fundamental beliefs about themselves, food, and the world around them. This is a tough concept, because after all, their lot in life might not work that well but it has gotten them this far. More often than not these people fail and they fail miserably. They fail because changing those core fundamental beliefs, opinions, and ideas is remarkably hard. Imagine if someone told you tomorrow that black is white or up is down. How well would you fare? Would you just accept it an move on? Some would, but most would probably fight it and try to convince themselves and others that black was indeed black. This stuff, these steps, totally changing your life is probably one of the most challenging tasks that there possibly could be to take on. There are huge stumbling blocks along the way too that I won’t go into because they are many and vary greatly from person to person. So please quit saying that AA doesn’t work corresponding to the success rate. It does work, it’s just remarkably, incomparably difficult to change everything about yourself. There’s a reason why people who do succeed come out the other side almost unrecognizable. It’s because they have effectively become a whole new person. Try it sometime, it’s not easy… ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/300 "2011-08-18T02:25:23Z")
> [@freep5637](#): > > I’d like to refute some of the comments made above as to why AA doesn’t have a higher success rate. I’m not going to cite and this is all anecdotal but here’s why I think that AA doesn’t have the success rate some people want… Anecdotal, irrelevant and biased. But thank you for typing just the same. That said, this being GD, do bring facts in your next effort. Brain + soap = Brainwash. No debate there. [**Statistics of Alcoholics Anonymous**](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_edJHURXhw&feature=related) So no, it **factually** doesn’t. But as I’ve said many a time before, that won’t stop the scores of posts based on anecdotal evidence to blossom on a site based on “fighting ignorance.” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/301 "2011-08-18T02:42:55Z")
> [@OneMissedPost](#): > > Provide evidence despite personal experience that tells me otherwise. Oh no. I’m not the one making the claim – it’s up to YOU to prove your point. Not for me to prove you’re wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291.md?page=16)