# Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291 "2011-08-11T02:49:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/21 "2011-08-11T04:10:48Z")
If you have trouble imagining a life without alcohol, it does sound like you’re dependent on alcohol. If you’re getting into trouble because of alcohol, that also sounds like you have a problem with alcohol. Considering all the ways that alcohol can wreck a life, if you do find yourself getting into trouble because of it, I don’t think it’s worth it even though there are times when it can be enjoyable. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/22 "2011-08-11T04:22:31Z")
> [@Scotty Mo](#): > > Well, they might seem pretty weak to you. But for me, on weekend nights, I have one of two choices: sit at home and do nothing. Or go out with some friends, have a good time, and hopefully meet a nice girl. Now which one sounds more appealing? Hmmm??? That’s what I meant: they sound weak to an outsider. Just FYI; since I don’t know you or much about your situation, I can’t offer other advice. (I can try, though: what can you do at a bar that you can’t do at a restaurant or café?) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/23 "2011-08-11T04:23:52Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > What is the difference between “apparently innate weakness” and “character flaw”? Other than word choice, the concept seems to be the same. Calling something a character flaw implies that they have _bad character_; that they are a bad person. And you aren’t likely to convince people to do anything about their alcoholism if they think that admitting it exists is admitting that they’re a bad person. But everyone has weaknesses; you aren’t saying that you are a bad person if you admit to having a weakness. The same principle as calling it a disease really. ---
**Author:** ![Bri2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/48db29/32.png) [@Bri2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bri2k)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/24 "2011-08-11T04:39:39Z")
Research would seem to disprove that alcoholism is a “moral weakness” as [this WebMD article](http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20040526/researchers-identify-alcoholism-gene) on alcoholism and genetics states. This probably applies to most forms of addiction as well. Bri2k ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/25 "2011-08-11T04:55:08Z")
> [@Scotty Mo](#): > > So I’ve been seeing a psychologist lately who has told me that I am an alcoholic and there’s no way around it. She illustrated to me a line where social use is seperated from alcoholic use and because it’s a “disease”, there’s nothing I can do to help it. > > I’ve also been attending some AA meetings where most people are of the same opinion. > > I’m having a difficult time coming to grips with this. Sounds like it’s a problem for you, you know it’s a problem, and you know you really should quit. But, you’re freaking yourself out about never, ever being able to have a drop of booze ever again in your life and that’s fucking with your head, and your ability to quit now, while it’s a good idea to quit. So don’t worry about it. For all you know, tomorrow they’ll come out with a new pill that makes alcohol fun and safe again. Do what your gut is telling you, which I strongly suspect is “quit.” There’s no law that says you can never, ever have a drink ever again so long as you live. Don’t let the fear and stress of that keep you from doing what’s best for you now. The world is full of booze. “One day at a time,” they say. No, I don’t believe “once an alkie, always and forevermore an alkie.” Don’t bullshit yourself out of quitting now though. It sounds like you should quit for now. Consider shopping for different friends. Not all at once or anything, but the world’s full of cool people who believe it or not, don’t drink. They’re not all born again bible thumpers either. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/26 "2011-08-11T05:06:03Z")
Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/27 "2011-08-11T05:08:37Z")
> [@Scotty Mo](#): > > Well, they might seem pretty weak to you. But for me, on weekend nights, I have one of two choices: sit at home and do nothing. Or go out with some friends, have a good time, and hopefully meet a nice girl. Now which one sounds more appealing? Hmmm??? Lots of people go out Saturday night and have a few drinks without getting off-their-tits drunk. If you get shitfaced every time you go out for drinks, that sounds like you have a problem. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/28 "2011-08-11T06:23:56Z")
> [@Scotty Mo](#): > > I really don’t crave drinks daily… So then there are times when you do in fact _crave_ it? 'Cause that’s really the issue. Whether you have the “will power,” “good character,” or “discipline” to resist the craving is ancillary. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/29 "2011-08-11T06:31:19Z")
> [@Scotty Mo](#): > > Yes, it’s been a problem. But it’s also been a good thing. I’ve had many good times while drinking. It’s pretty difficult to quit when everyone you know drinks and it’s something you’re accustomed to. Funny story, I once heard a heroin addict say the same thing ! Not really, I didn’t. But if you can take a step back and take a look at what you just wrote, you’ll see it too. You’re just making up a bunch of flaky reasons not to stop doing something you know is a problem. If that’s not addict behaviour, I’m not a pack-a-day smoker. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/30 "2011-08-11T06:32:38Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Alcoholism is not a disease, it’s a character flaw. Diseases are not bottled and sold for profit. Nobody ever ran down to the corner store for a six pack of smallpox. A person either has the ability to control their use of intoxicants, or they do not. If you lack that ability, you’re an alcoholic, and shouldn’t drink. And the Buzz Killington award goes to… ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/31 "2011-08-11T06:35:11Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > So then there are times when you do in fact _crave_ it? 'Cause that’s really the issue. Whether you have the “will power,” “good character,” or “discipline” to resist the craving is ancillary. I might be wrong, but the way I read that he meant it as " I don’t crave drinks daily" as one whole phrase, not I don’t crave drinks _daily._ As in a way to say he just doesn’t crave drinking. But again, I might be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/32 "2011-08-11T06:45:46Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I might be wrong, but the way I read that he meant it as " I don’t crave drinks daily" as one whole phrase, not I don’t crave drinks _daily._ As in a way to say he just doesn’t crave drinking. But again, I might be wrong. Well, then, an interesting use of a superfluous modifier. ---
**Author:** ![EvilTOJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/33 "2011-08-11T07:37:12Z")
I don’t like the concept of AA. They preach that you are helpless against alcohol and that only [del]God[/del] a higher power can save you. I think that’s a bunch of patronizing horseshit. It’s basically saying “You’re weak and you can’t do anything about it!” which is a terrible attitude to have when trying to overcome a problem. Instead they should be helping you through the reasons for drinking. Is it to escape? Anxiety? Loneliness? Angry at the world? I used to think I had a problem. I homebrew, and I was drinking way too much after work. I hated my life, and so depressed. So, I quit making beer, and rarely got out of the house enough to go buy it. Life didn’t get any better, but at least I wasn’t drinking myself to death. These days I feel much better about myself. I go out with friends more, I’ve been seeing a girl, I see the kids a lot more than I used to, less debt and stress. Life is … better. I drink all the time now, but it’s for the pleasure of it, not to escape. **Scotty Mo** , you should look for a different therapist, one that’ll help empower you instead of relying on an AA crutch. This one is crap. I wish I had better advice than that. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/34 "2011-08-11T08:52:38Z")
[http://www.asam.org/TreatmentforAlcoholism.html](http://www.asam.org/TreatmentforAlcoholism.html) I’d see the medical world about quitting before AA. AA is like the idea that to a hammer, everything looks like a nail – they only have one strategy and that’s the right strategy for you. But if you find a doctor in addictive medicine, he’ll compare you to past cases and public data to decide what the most effective course for treatment will be. At the end of all of your treatment, they may well recommend going to AA, simply as a free method to keep the subject on your mind, so that you don’t relapse. But yes, as the above cite says, alcoholism is a chronic disease. While there may be some small percentage of alcoholics who can learn to drink in reason and without impairing their lives, there’s nothing in particular to be gained by gambling that you’re one of them. If nothing else, water is a lot cheaper to drink than alcohol, so you’ll end up ahead (potentially) a thousand dollars a year. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/35 "2011-08-11T09:35:35Z")
> [@Scotty Mo](#): > > Well, they might seem pretty weak to you. But for me, on weekend nights, I have one of two choices: sit at home and do nothing. Or go out with some friends, have a good time, and hopefully meet a nice girl. Now which one sounds more appealing? Hmmm??? Sorry, I went out to bars with my friends a _lot_ in the 80s when I was single, and most nights I didn’t drink. Well, I didn’t drink alcohol. I drank coffee, I drank fruit juice, I didn’t normally drink soda because I don’t actually like soda unless I am sick. There is a lot to do in bars that doesn’t involve alcohol. I was the top scorer on the centipede machine in the local hangout bar. I played darts, not well but it was fun. I danced and had a blast. Hell, I was even in a band, and managed to not drink, and I was hanging out with the video jocky between sets, or in the kitchen with the kitchen monkey frying up the pub grub. I _do not_ drive after drinking more than 1 drink in an evening. The only time I ever had anything except soft drinks or a single drink with dinner was either when someone else was driving or I was staying in a hotel and hitting the hotel bar on a business trip. The bug up my butt about AA is because when I took a friend to an AA meeting because he was ordered to by his command they spent more time trying to convince me I was an alcoholic than trying to set Andy up with a damned sponsor and more meetings. I was just the designated driver because he lost driving privileges on base. Talk about the old adage that when all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail… ---
**Author:** ![PandaBear77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@PandaBear77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PandaBear77)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/36 "2011-08-11T11:04:11Z")
> [@Scotty Mo](#): > > I’m having a difficult time coming to grips with this. I’m a strong-willed person, but, I do have a hard time handling my alcohol. And yes, I am going to see these people because I recently got into trouble, but thats besides the point. I think this is an important point. I looked at your profile. You’re only 25 years old. I don’t know what kind of trouble you’ve gotten into but consider it a wake-up call, hon. If you can’t imagine going out and having fun without booze, yes, you’re an alcoholic, and you’re gonna be one the rest of your life. It’s not about being a good or bad person - I don’t know what causes alcoholism - but whatever it is that normal people have that enables them to drink normally without it messing up their life … you don’t have it. It’s not fair, I know – it really isn’t. You see other people who are able to drink rather heavily yet somehow they have that control that eludes you - it sucks! But it is what it is and you can either accept that you’re simply not like normal drinkers and stay completely away from alcohol, or you can spend your life trying to fight it. If you try to fight it, you WILL fail, take it to the bank. Hospitals are full of people who thought they could fight it – read up on cirrhosis sometime and end stage liver disease. It’s a truly horrible way to go. You may only drink on the weekends now, but odds are you’ll start drinking here and there during the week, then most days, then every day, then every day because if you don’t you feel like shit physically, then every day because if you don’t you’ll have seizures. Suppose you had, oh, skin cancer. It starts out as a suspicious looking mole (that turns out to be malignant), that could easily be cut off and presto, no more cancer. When would you get it taken care of - immediately, or would you wait and hope that it’ll either get better on its own, or at least not get any worse, because if it doesn’t get any worse, you can live with it as is? When would you take action? Would you wait until it had spread to your lymph nodes, or would you wait until the cancer started attacking an internal organ before doing something about it? At what point would you say “fuck this, I need help?” You’d get the mole removed immediately, of course, and you wouldn’t have to think about it. So it goes with alcoholism - it WILL get worse, and whatever trouble you’re in now isn’t nearly as bad as the trouble that awaits you. How bad does it have to get? A DUI? A jail sentence? Getting behind the wheel drunk and hurting yourself or someone else? Needing a liver transplant? Keep going to AA. Read the Big Book. Take what is useful to you and leave the rest. Do I think AA is the one and only answer for alcoholics? No. I think not drinking is the only answer, and AA has helped a LOT of people with that. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/37 "2011-08-11T11:38:31Z")
I don’t buy it. All animals can be taught to modify their behaviour and humans aren’t any different. An alcoholic truly cannot help or stop themselves from drinking. They have no control over their actions. Anything less than that is simply bad habits coupled with some emotional distress. Bad habits can be changed. Tips: First off, We need some more info about how you use alcohol. It sounds like you go out with friends on the weekends and get wrecked. Not a terrible thing, but not great either. So… **Find some new friends** This doesn’t mean losing your old ones, just indulge some of your other interests at the expense of the usual night out. Grab a hobby, or take a class etc. Widening your social circle will provide more opportunities to meet women as well as removing you from pigeonholing yourself into the bar scene all weekend. **Start drinking a higher class of booze** Chances are at 25, you aren’t flush with cash and getting bent on single malt scotch. If you are a beer drinker, find some craft places or brewpubs where the booze is both better quality and more expensive. If you like liquor, only buy top shelf. Your budget does not go as far there, and you will begin to appreciate good drinks for more than just a social lubricant. While you are at it, **pair your drinking with food**. This teaches you to view drinks as a food with fun side effects, not a drug or a way out of your woes. **Set a budget** and don’t allow yourself to go over it. This is a harsher measure to take if others fail. If you have to go out with cash only to accomplish this then so be it. If you are drinking good stuff it won’t go far, and if you are in the habit of buying drinks for women you are chatting up, it won’t last long at ALL. Force yourself to find other ways to enjoy your night. Creativity and small generosity will get more quality girls than free drinks. Lastly, **Know when to admit you have a problem** If you find yourself unable to do any of the above, and still crave alcohol then you are an addict. Addicts need professional treatment, and not some god-bothering support group. So are you just weak willed, or do you need real help? ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/38 "2011-08-11T12:00:54Z")
AA helped me but I think now it was because I had known several people who attended AA and were successful at giving up drinking; in other words, I was predisposed to believe that AA would help me and it did. I haven’t been to an AA meeting in years and I have a cabinet with a lot of alcohol in it; my few friends do drink and I keep the stuff around for them. I wouldn’t want to hazard a guess as to how long its been since I last had a drink but I know its been years. You don’t have to hide from alcohol in order to not drink. That said, I know I might respond to some sort of stress by having a drink and I know I’m at risk of going back to binge drinking. Up to now, I haven’t been tempted but I know the risk is real; I probably shouldn’t have alcohol in my house at all. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/39 "2011-08-11T12:12:43Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Alcoholism is not a disease, it’s a character flaw. Diseases are not bottled and sold for profit. Nobody ever ran down to the corner store for a six pack of smallpox. A person either has the ability to control their use of intoxicants, or they do not. If you lack that ability, you’re an alcoholic, and shouldn’t drink. How many times would you have to drink too much to conclude you had this character flaw? Seems like it would require drinking from time to time to determine if you still have this character flaw, or was it just a one time thing. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/40 "2011-08-11T13:07:47Z")
Alcoholism is, IMO, not a “disease” as much as it’s a state of mind and a set of behaviors. I don’t agree with AA on a lot of issues, but their basic definition of alcoholism isn’t too far off - an alcoholic is someone who cannot control their drinking and engages in self-destructive behavior because of it. It’s not necessarily a matter of how much one consumes - there are people out there who can black out and do things they’ll regret later after one or two bottles of Miller Lite, and there are other people who can down a six-pack of IPA and be no worse for wear when they go in to work the next morning. It all comes down to one big question, really - is the urge to drink making it impossible for you to live your life in the way you would prefer to? If the answer is “Yes”, then you’re an alcoholic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291.md?page=3)