# Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291 "2011-08-11T02:49:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/122 "2011-08-12T20:40:58Z")
> [@SeldomSeen](#): > > I don’t know that the military establishment should be considered a good source of medical advice, but when I was enlisted (a good many years ago) they had their own treatment programs and means. The Navy, in its wisdom declared a person “cured” after two years of sobriety. At that point the restrictions were lifted, the slate was wiped clean, fliers who had been grounded due to drinking problems could return to flying, security clearances were re-established, etc. In the eyes of the military powers-that-be, if one could stay sober for two years, chances were good he could remain so for the rest of his enlistment. Thank you for the military definition-clear, concise and reachable. What about those of you who support AAA? What would it take to declare someone cured of alcoholism? The answer to this question is the answer to the OP’s question, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Bloodless\_Turnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bloodless\_Turnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bloodless_Turnip)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/123 "2011-08-12T20:52:23Z")
It’s an interesting question Czarcasm. When I went to family visitation while a family member was in rehab, I heard a lot of stories. One, where a woman had been sober for years (around 15 IIRC) and had gone “off the wagon” spectacularly. She said it was like she had never stopped, that time picked right back up where she left off drinking. This may be be why groups like AA stress that alcoholics can never drink again. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/124 "2011-08-12T21:11:38Z")
> [@Bloodless\_Turnip](#): > > AMA paper on it is [here](http://www.ama-assn.org/resources/doc/alcohol/alcoholism_treatable.pdf). > > I 100% disagree with them that it is a disease btw. Not that it matters 🙂 I don’t think any of that answers my question, though. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/125 "2011-08-12T21:13:39Z")
> [@Bloodless\_Turnip](#): > > It’s an interesting question Czarcasm. When I went to family visitation while a family member was in rehab, I heard a lot of stories. > > One, where a woman had been sober for years (around 15 IIRC) and had gone “off the wagon” spectacularly. She said it was like she had never stopped, that time picked right back up where she left off drinking. > > This may be be why groups like AA stress that alcoholics can never drink again. Would that mean that if someone diagnosed as an alcoholic manages to have a drink once in a while and _doesn’t_ fall off the wagon, AAA would consider them cured? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/126 "2011-08-12T21:15:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would that mean that if someone diagnosed as an alcoholic manages to have a drink once in a while and _doesn’t_ fall off the wagon, AAA would consider them cured? Probably not, but they might be eligible for emergency road service. ---
**Author:** ![Bloodless\_Turnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bloodless\_Turnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bloodless_Turnip)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/127 "2011-08-12T21:22:28Z")
I don’t see the word “cure” listed anywhere in the AMA documents nor the NIH documents, in relation to alcoholism. Hold the phone: > [@](#): > > 1. Can alcoholism be cured? > > No, alcoholism cannot be cured at this time. Even if an alcoholic hasn’t been drinking for a long time, he or she can still suffer a relapse. Not drinking is the safest course for most people with alcoholism. From [here](http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/FAQs/General-English/Pages/default.aspx#cured). ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/128 "2011-08-12T21:30:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Thank you for the military definition-clear, concise and reachable. > What about those of you who support AAA? What would it take to declare someone cured of alcoholism? The answer to this question is the answer to the OP’s question, in my opinion. According to AA – have no clue about the American Automobile Association has to say on the subject – you are never “cured.” Guess that makes an ex-smoker for 20 years still a smoker. Disease. Powerless. Healing up to whimsical Higher Power. Must never forget. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/129 "2011-08-12T21:31:19Z")
> [@Bloodless\_Turnip](#): > > I don’t see the word “cure” listed anywhere in the AMA documents nor the NIH documents, in relation to alcoholism. > > Hold the phone: > > From [here](http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/FAQs/General-English/Pages/default.aspx#cured). Once again, that doesn’t describe what they mean by “cure”-it only says that a cure isn’t possible. It’s like asking someone to describe a dog to you, and the best they can do is describe an elephant and say “That ain’t it.” ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/130 "2011-08-12T21:45:10Z")
[**Why Do Heavy Drinkers Outlive Nondrinkers?**](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2017200,00.html) > [@](#): > > …Moderate drinking, which is defined as one to three drinks per day, is associated with the lowest mortality rates in alcohol studies. Moderate alcohol use (especially when the beverage of choice is red wine) is thought to improve heart health, circulation and sociability, which can be important because people who are isolated don’t have as many family members and friends who can notice and help treat health problems. > > But why would abstaining from alcohol lead to a shorter life? It’s true that those who abstain from alcohol tend to be from lower socioeconomic classes, since drinking can be expensive. And people of lower socioeconomic status have more life stressors — job and child-care worries that might not only keep them from the bottle but also cause stress-related illnesses over long periods. (They also don’t get the stress-reducing benefits of a drink or two after work.) > > But even after controlling for nearly all imaginable variables — socioeconomic status, level of physical activity, number of close friends, quality of social support and so on — the researchers (a six-member team led by psychologist Charles Holahan of the University of Texas at Austin) found that over a 20-year period, mortality rates were highest for those who were not current drinkers, regardless of whether they used to be alcoholics, second highest for heavy drinkers and lowest for moderate drinkers. (Watch TIME’s Video “Taste Test: Beer with Extra Buzz.”) > > The sample of those who were studied included individuals between ages 55 and 65 who had had any kind of outpatient care in the previous three years. The 1,824 participants were followed for 20 years. One drawback of the sample: a disproportionate number, 63%, were men. Just over 69% of the abstainers died during the 20 years, 60% of the heavy drinkers died and only 41% of moderate drinkers died. > > These are remarkable statistics. Even though heavy drinking is associated with higher risk for cirrhosis and several types of cancer (particularly cancers in the mouth and esophagus), heavy drinkers are less likely to die than people who don’t drink, even if they never had a problem with alcohol. One important reason is that alcohol lubricates so many social interactions, and social interactions are vital for maintaining mental and physical health. As I pointed out last year, nondrinkers show greater signs of depression than those who allow themselves to join the party… Your choice… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/131 "2011-08-12T21:48:36Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**Why Do Heavy Drinkers Outlive Nondrinkers?**](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2017200,00.html) > > Your choice… I choose to stay on topic. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/132 "2011-08-12T22:15:25Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > According to AA – have no clue about the American Automobile Association has to say on the subject – you are never “cured.” Guess that makes an ex-smoker for 20 years still a smoker. > > Disease. Powerless. Healing up to whimsical Higher Power. Must never forget. Is thatthe upshot of AA’s teachings? That you are powerless and therefore you aren’t responsible for anything you do? ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/133 "2011-08-12T22:23:08Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > More on the dominance, cost and ineffectiveness of 12 step treatment: [**We’re addicted to rehab. It doesn’t even work.**](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/06/AR2010080602660.html?sub=AR) A good example of confusing correlation with causation. Most rehabs don’t work simply because they’re too short. It doesn’t really matter whether they use 12-step models or not. They use it because they think it might give some credence to a place which is often just an absurdly priced resort in disguise. And most of the people who go to short rehabs don’t realize this. They think in 30 days they’re going to magically reverse decades of abuse. (Actually, it’s usually their families who think this, and who pay for it.) Also, using a place like Passages of Malibu as an example is not a very good rhetorical strategy. That place is such a blatant a fraud, it embarrasses even the more subtle frauds. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/134 "2011-08-12T22:24:50Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Is thatthe upshot of AA’s teachings? That you are powerless and therefore you aren’t responsible for anything you do? That’s not what AA teaches. You are powerless to control your drinking. That is all, you don’t get a pass for bad behavior. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/135 "2011-08-12T22:33:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would that mean that if someone diagnosed as an alcoholic manages to have a drink once in a while and _doesn’t_ fall off the wagon, AAA would consider them cured? No, I think AA believes that alcoholics are not allowed to drink. The fact that they had a drink would mean that they are not cured. If they were truly cured, they would be fine staying away from all alcohol and not drinking at all. Having a drink would be considered a relapse in their eyes… Again, this is what I think. Someone should google it. 😉 I think what happens is they assume that if an alcoholic has a drink, that person will not be able to control his or her drinking (one drink will lead to more drinks). > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That’s not what AA teaches. You are powerless to control your drinking. That is all, you don’t get a pass for bad behavior. And that you need to give yourself over to a higher power in order to control your drinking. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/136 "2011-08-12T22:43:47Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That’s not what AA teaches. You are powerless to control your drinking. That is all, you don’t get a pass for bad behavior. I’m going to ask for clarification because this seems to be a bit ambiguous. 1. Does AA teach that an alcoholic is completely powerless to stay away from alcohol and therefore has no ability to stay sober and therefore cannot be held responsible if he takes a drink? If so, then I don’t see the point of any treatment or recovery program. Or – 1. That an alcoholic is powerless in the sense that once he takes a drink, he is unable to drink in moderation? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/137 "2011-08-12T22:45:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’m going to ask for clarification because this seems to be a bit ambiguous. > > 1. Does AA teach that an alcoholic is completely powerless to stay away from alcohol and therefore has no ability to stay sober and therefore cannot be held responsible if he takes a drink? No. > [@](#): > > 1. That an alcoholic is powerless in the sense that once he takes a drink, he is unable to drink in moderation? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/138 "2011-08-12T22:46:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > 1. That an alcoholic is powerless in the sense that once he takes a drink, he is unable to drink in moderation? This. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/139 "2011-08-12T23:08:19Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Is thatthe upshot of AA’s teachings? That you are powerless and therefore you aren’t responsible for anything you do? It seems that you may be unfamiliar with what the steps are. This may help(this is NA’s version, but the others are very similar, only one or two words changed): It is pretty well accepted that you cannot take the 1st step if you currently intoxicated. Step 1 - We admitted we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable Step 2 - Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity Step 3 - Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God Step 4 - Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves Step 5 - Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs Step 6 - Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character Step 7 - Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings Step 8 - Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all Step 9 - Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others Step 10 - Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it Step 11 - Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood God, praying only for knowledge of God’s will for us and the power to carry that out Step 12 - Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs In our program, it is not enough to simply stop using the drug. The NA Basic Texts states “Simple abstinence is not our goal. Our goal is recovery as experienced through the 12 steps”. Put simply, you can be sober without being in recovery. You cannot be in recovery without being sober. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/140 "2011-08-12T23:24:48Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > AA is a useless cult. I couldn’t drink like I did when I was younger, because I’ve got to get up in the morning and show up at work. This is one of the most ignorant posts I’ve read in recent memory. There are millions of people who believe that AA saved their lives. _Millions._ ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291/141 "2011-08-12T23:46:53Z")
I don’t blame anyone for not getting or not believing in AA, NA or whatnot. A lot of it does seem counter-intuitive. I just remember that it’s not \*for them \*to get or believe in. OK, WTF!!! Is it coincidence that ads I see above this reply box are : _**Binge Drinking Problems? #1 Addictions Rehab Center Alcoholism -Gain Control**_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/once-an-alcoholic-always-an-alcoholic/592291.md?page=8)