# One again the UN has proved its uselessness. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 6, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991 "2012-02-06T18:00:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/1 "2012-02-06T18:00:05Z")
so the United Nations failed to pass a resolution condeming the violence in Syria. Apparently, China and Russia are having fun watching the show. Or something. I wish I could say I’m surprised, but I’m not. Could someone please remind me why we have a UN, when it’s so dysfunctional that they can’t even agree that mass murder is a bad thing? ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/2 "2012-02-06T18:47:29Z")
That is just how our media are portraying it. Look at it from another P.O.V. Oil, lots of it and lots of volatile nations in a volatile area - don’t like a government? Well lets just pass a UN resolution and replace it with a government that suits our flavour better. Western interests have cosied up to some pretty despicable governments in the past, and dumped them when it was convenient, and will continue to do so. Both Russia and China have interests, both regionally and also in terms of their own internal situations and politics. Funnily enough there is a well known propaganda tv network in the US that is viewed in exactly that manner within the US itself by a significant portion of the population. Don’t believe everything you see and hear from the media. The UN is functioning exactly as it should, its not there to oversee the nasty governments and ensure they are replaced by nice fluffy west friendly regimes. It is not there to interfere in the internal running of nations, though the politics played out often mean that various nations use it for their own purposes. I wonder how folk will feel when we are sending our boys over there to get shot at in a ‘peacekeeping’ operation, right at the edge of Iran, can’t see why anyone would be alarmed at that prospect, can you? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/3 "2012-02-06T20:04:41Z")
All this revolves around the relatively new concept of “Responsibility to Intervene”. That was the justification in Libya. But “intervene” does not mean overthrow the government, and that’s what we did in Libya. No wonder the Russians and Chinese aren’t playing ball this time. They did last time, and we re-wrote the rules after the game started. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/4 "2012-02-06T20:10:45Z")
I can see your points, but here we have a dictator shelling his own citizens for demonstrating against his regime. The UN can’t officially condemn that? What is their function then? ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/5 "2012-02-06T20:15:21Z")
What good would a condemnation do anyway? Perhaps if they “strenuously condemn” it, it will have more meaning. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/6 "2012-02-06T20:17:18Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > I can see your points, but here we have a dictator shelling his own citizens for demonstrating against his regime. The UN can’t officially condemn that? What is their function then? The resolution called for Assad to step down. That’s regime change. Any wonder why a one-party state (and a semi-one party start) would demur? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/7 "2012-02-06T20:21:52Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > I can see your points, but here we have a dictator shelling his own citizens for demonstrating against his regime. The UN can’t officially condemn that? What is their function then? To resolve conflicts \*between \*nations. Not within nations. The former is diplomacy, the latter is dangerously close to scrapping the concept of sovereignty altogether. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/8 "2012-02-06T20:34:55Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > To resolve conflicts \*between \*nations. Not within nations. The former is diplomacy, the latter is dangerously close to scrapping the concept of sovereignty altogether. In 2005, the UN added the “Responsibility to Protect” to it’s bag of tricks, and the following was passed by the UNSC: > [@UN](#): > > The international community, through the United Nations, also has the responsibility to use appropriate diplomatic, humanitarian and other peaceful means, in accordance with Chapters VI and VIII of the Charter, to help protect populations from genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity. In this context, we are prepared to take collective action, in a timely and decisive manner, through the Security Council, in accordance with the Charter, including Chapter VII, on a case-by-case basis and in cooperation with relevant regional organizations as appropriate, should peaceful means be inadequate and national authorities manifestly fail to protect their populations from genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity. We stress the need for the General Assembly to continue consideration of the responsibility to protect populations from genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity and its implications, bearing in mind the principles of the Charter and international law. We also intend to commit ourselves, as necessary and appropriate, to helping States build capacity to protect their populations from genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity and to assisting those which are under stress before crises and conflicts break out. It’s a very new concept for the UN, basically coming out of its failure to act in Rwanda, and we’re seeing how tricky it is to implement IRL. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/9 "2012-02-06T20:37:03Z")
Right. The question is at what point putting down an insurrection (from the regime’s point of view) becomes genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing, or crimes against humanity. I think it’s unfortunate that China and Russia vetoed but can’t say that I’m surprised or that it somehow invalidates the UN. On Edit: It’s also one thing to vote to condemn (and ultimately help overthrow) a guy like Gaddafi that nobody really liked than it is to do the same to Assad, whom both China and Russia have relations and trade with. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/10 "2012-02-06T20:38:25Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > The UN can’t officially condemn that? What is their function then? To enact the will of the consensus of the world’s nations. Get that consensus and the UN will act. That is the only thing that gives the UN power, _and it is that way by design._ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/11 "2012-02-06T20:42:00Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Right. The question is at what point putting down an insurrection (from the regime’s point of view) becomes genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing, or crimes against humanity. > > I think it’s unfortunate that China and Russia vetoed but can’t say that I’m surprised or that it somehow invalidates the UN. > > On Edit: It’s also one thing to vote to condemn (and ultimately help overthrow) a guy like Gaddafi that nobody really liked than it is to do the same to Assad, whom both China and Russia have relations and trade with. But the question also is at what point do you decide that diplomatic measures won’t work. And that leaves all the wiggle room in the world for any state on the UNSC. Unless you have some Dictator saying “Fuck you, UNSC, I’ll kill as many people in my country as I want”, you can always claim that diplomacy has not played itself out. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/12 "2012-02-06T20:52:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But the question also is at what point do you decide that diplomatic measures won’t work. And that leaves all the wiggle room in the world for any state on the UNSC. Unless you have some Dictator saying “Fuck you, UNSC, I’ll kill as many people in my country as I want”, you can always claim that diplomacy has not played itself out. I’m not sure I follow the point you are making here… perhaps you can clarify. As to diplomacy, it’s really never “played itself out” - all you can do with military action is change the terms or the players. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/13 "2012-02-06T20:56:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > In 2005, the UN added the “Responsibility to Protect” to it’s bag of tricks, and the following was passed by the UNSC Did not know that, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/14 "2012-02-06T20:57:05Z")
Genocide as practiced in Serbia and Rwanda should be condemned by the international community of civilized states. But, is that the case in Syria? It seems more like a violent suppression of dissidents. Russia has done this (in Georgia) and China has done it many times before. It is not surprising that they would block this. I don’t agree with it; I don’t like it. However, it is consistent with how Russia and China handle internal dissidence. The question is “now what?” Do we, the ‘West’ stand by and let this continue? As I have said before, there is a vocal minority that says we should just stand by and let these evil brown people kill each other because they deserve it. Bigotry, by any other name, smells just the same, in my not so humble opinion. Do Human Rights mean anything? What have the lessons of history taught us if not that when we stand by and just watch that atrocities will happen when the underclass is trampled by those in power, that we become culpable at some level (even if at a distance)? The world is much smaller than it once was. The atrocities in the Boer War were not reported in real time. If they had been, things may have been different. If the international community had been watching would the Rape of Nanking occurred? And don’t even get me started on the Holocaust. No, the recent crap in Syria is NOT in the same class as any of these atrocities. But can we say that there shouldn’t be someway that regimes can be held to some standard of accepted decency. The UN while a completely corrupt and undermined bureaucratic institution was founded on good principles. It may be the only conduit for international censure when such is needed. I don’t have any answers, only questions. But these are questions that should be debated. That is, in my opinion they should. Perhaps this is merely a moot point. I mean, after all, who cares what happens ‘over there’? Harrumph, I say! Harrumph! Thank you for reading my rant. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/15 "2012-02-06T20:59:00Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > That is just how our media are portraying it. > > Look at it from another P.O.V. > > Oil, lots of it and lots of volatile nations in a volatile area - don’t like a government? Syria has no oil. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/16 "2012-02-06T21:07:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Syria has no oil. They have some. But don’t they have pipelines bringing oil to other countries? I don’t see how we could intervene militarily and not hasten a civil war. Maybe we should, since one is probably going to play out there at some point, but I’m just not seeing how it’s in our interest to do so. I don’t care what color they are, if it’s not in our interest, I saw we keep the hell out. We can take out pretty much any government we want, but it’s what we do afterwards that matters, and I’m thoroughly unimpressed with what we did in Iraq and are still doing in Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/17 "2012-02-06T21:33:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They have some. But don’t they have pipelines bringing oil to other countries? They have some, but they are not in any way a significant oil player. > [@](#): > > I don’t see how we could intervene militarily and not hasten a civil war. Maybe we should, since one is probably going to play out there at some point, but I’m just not seeing how it’s in our interest to do so. I don’t care what color they are, if it’s not in our interest, I saw we keep the hell out. We can take out pretty much any government we want, but it’s what we do afterwards that matters, and I’m thoroughly unimpressed with what we did in Iraq and are still doing in Afghanistan. Full agreement. Anyone who thinks that “Arab Spring” in general and Syrian events in particular will lead to any kind of viable democracies in those countries is hunting unicorns. But it is good to make sympathetic noises just to maintain a semblance of “good will” with the incoming regimes. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/18 "2012-02-06T22:17:52Z")
Listening to NPR about the issue this morning, I began to wonder if the Arab League might take it upon themselves to intervene, in lieu of the U.N. passing a resolution. It’s not like Russia and China have veto power in that organization. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/19 "2012-02-06T22:18:45Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Listening to NPR about the issue this morning, I began to wonder if the Arab League might take it upon themselves to intervene, in lieu of the U.N. passing a resolution. > > It’s not like Russia and China have veto power in that organization. Arab league has no teeth. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/20 "2012-02-06T22:22:46Z")
They got any guns? More to the point, do they have any unanimity? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991.md?page=2)