# One again the UN has proved its uselessness. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 6, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991 "2012-02-06T18:00:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/21 "2012-02-07T01:00:56Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > I’m not sure I follow the point you are making here… perhaps you can clarify. > > As to diplomacy, it’s really never “played itself out” - all you can do with military action is change the terms or the players. The part of the UN resolution that I quoted had 2 key metrics for when the UNSC would act: when the controlling government can’t control the violence, and when diplomacy has been shown to have failed. It also mentions that each situation has to be handled individually, so you said the question was when putting down an insurrection becomes genocide, but equally important a question is when we know that diplomacy has failed. Currently, the Russians are saying there are still diplomatic options. No Arab country is going to invade another Arab country without incurring the wrath of the rest of the Arab world. The Arab League is even more worthless than the UN in this situation. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/22 "2012-02-07T06:51:00Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > so the United Nations failed to pass a resolution condeming the violence in Syria. Apparently, China and Russia are having fun watching the show. Or something. I wish I could say I’m surprised, but I’m not. Could someone please remind me why we have a UN, when it’s so dysfunctional that they can’t even agree that mass murder is a bad thing? We have a UN to serve the purposes of imperialism and other vested interests of the five permanent members, and to give all of that a veneer of credibility for the hard of thinking - especially but not only in the area of 'international ‘law’ which, of course, isn’t law at all. Unless it suits the five permanent members. It’s just not USAs imperialism or vested interests that’s served on this occasion. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/23 "2012-02-07T15:00:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The part of the UN resolution that I quoted had 2 key metrics for when the UNSC would act: when the controlling government can’t control the violence, and when diplomacy has been shown to have failed. It also mentions that each situation has to be handled individually, so you said the question was when putting down an insurrection becomes genocide, but equally important a question is when we know that diplomacy has failed. Currently, the Russians are saying there are still diplomatic options. Gotcha. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/24 "2012-02-07T15:22:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Full agreement. Anyone who thinks that “Arab Spring” in general and Syrian events in particular will lead to any kind of viable democracies in those countries is hunting unicorns. But it is good to make sympathetic noises just to maintain a semblance of “good will” with the incoming regimes. There _are_ states between “viable democracy” and “despotism”, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/25 "2012-02-07T15:34:55Z")
I think the UN rejection by China and Russia is a formality and a gut check on how other nations feel about it. Ideally, NATO unanimously agree that we should intervene a la Libya and the Arab league signs on. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/26 "2012-02-07T16:52:35Z")
I think the N should issue an “extremely strong” condemnation…that will deter Assad. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/27 "2012-02-07T17:06:05Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > What good would a condemnation do anyway? Perhaps if they “strenuously condemn” it, it will have more meaning. You condemn once, so we can say he’s a tyrant. If you keep after it, it looks like a bunch of fancy diplomat tricks. It’s the difference between paper law and international law. Even the Chinese are vetoing it! ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/28 "2012-02-07T17:12:10Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > Genocide as practiced in Serbia and Rwanda should be condemned by the international community of civilized states. > But, is that the case in Syria? It seems more like a violent suppression of dissidents. It seems to me that genocide usually starts out as “violent suppression of dissidents.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/29 "2012-02-07T17:23:00Z")
Sure, but there are always shades of gray. Did anyone expect the UN to take action to halt the siege of the Branch Davidian compound? ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/30 "2012-02-07T18:50:00Z")
Or Putin’s systematic levelling of a major city like Grozny. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/31 "2012-02-07T19:26:57Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > It seems to me that genocide usually starts out as “violent suppression of dissidents.” Depends on your definition of “genocide”, I’d expect. If you simply use it to mean “lots and lots of dead civilians”, then yes, if only because the violent suppression of dissidents tends to be a self-sustaining proposition. But if you use the more restrictive definition of “killing people based on their ethnicity/culture/religion/social caste”, then rebelliousness has little to do with anything. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/32 "2012-02-07T19:29:10Z")
The UN is effectively carrying out its duties as designed. Instead of caving to a pro-Western ideology, it was forced to consider the vetoes of 2 of its permanent members. Just because it doesn’t come out in your favor doesn’t make it ineffective ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/33 "2012-02-08T21:17:22Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > It seems to me that genocide usually starts out as “violent suppression of dissidents.” Well, you gotta create SOME sort of excuse to get the ball rolling. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/34 "2012-02-08T21:59:35Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I think the N should issue an “extremely strong” condemnation..that will deter Assad. Misspelling UN, that takes some special skill! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![put\_down\_the\_sabre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/da6949/32.png) [@put\_down\_the\_sabre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/put_down_the_sabre)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/35 "2012-02-08T22:05:44Z")
There’s a very strong correlation between Americans (and Brits) complaining that the UN is irrelevant/outdated/useless, and the UN getting in the way of what America Britain wants to do. Part of the whole point of the UN is to keep countries or groups of countries from going on the warpath without wider approval. I’d say in this case the UN is working fine. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/36 "2012-02-08T22:10:56Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > The UN is effectively carrying out its duties as designed. Instead of caving to a pro-Western ideology, it was forced to consider the vetoes of 2 of its permanent members. But Russian and China can not veto the UN general assembly, only the Security Council. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/37 "2012-02-09T01:21:03Z")
Only the Security Council can authorize peacekeeping missions or military action (unless the SC is not actively considering a matter, in which case the General Assembly can authorize peacekeeping efforts.) Art. 12, §2 of the UN Charter: > [@](#): > > The Secretary-General, with the consent of the Security Council, shall notify the General Assembly at each session of any matters relative to the maintenance of international peace and security which are being dealt with by the Security Council and shall similarly notify the General Assembly, or the Members of the United Nations if the General Assembly is not in session, immediately the Security Council ceases to deal with such matters. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991/38 "2012-02-09T02:37:28Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Only the Security Council can authorize peacekeeping missions or military action (unless the SC is not actively considering a matter, in which case the General Assembly can authorize peacekeeping efforts.) [/QUOTE] Yep. The US and the Obama administration is trying to do an end around, but that will delay any kind of humanitarian relief while we wait for everyone interested to get their shit together. From what I was reading earlier, we’d basically just be helping out the current Arab peace/humanitarian/probe efforts going on, since there isn’t anyway (without the use of force) for us TOO provide relief in the areas that need it. ☹ [QUOTE=Diceman] so the United Nations failed to pass a resolution condeming the violence in Syria. Apparently, China and Russia are having fun watching the show. Or something. I wish I could say I’m surprised, but I’m not. Could someone please remind me why we have a UN, when it’s so dysfunctional that they can’t even agree that mass murder is a bad thing? [/QUOTE] The trouble is that there is no consensus on what the ‘best’ course IS, over there. The Russians and Chinese don’t agree that regime change is the best course (and, leaving their own interests aside, recent events haven’t exactly been glowing for regime change as a fix all for problems), so they are balking at passing the resolution. Since they either have to agree or refrain from voting, it ties up the UNSC and effectively prevents any action with the stamp of UN approval on it. -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-again-the-un-has-proved-its-uselessness/611991.md?page=1)