# One blogger's journey to undo his homosexuality... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 9, 2004, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543 "2004-06-09T23:15:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/201 "2004-06-12T04:00:07Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > If I were going around claiming that being Christian was an immature wish-fulfillment fantasy and that Christians were inferior beings who should try not to be Christian anymore but instead follow pagan rituals, for their own good, would you be upset with me? I think you would. … even though it has rather a higher rate of success among those who’ve attempted it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/202 "2004-06-12T04:02:34Z")
I wouldn’t. You certainly have a right to do that. Unlike gays, you probably wouldn’t find too many Christians being unhappy being christian and wanting your help, though. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/203 "2004-06-12T04:17:04Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > And people wonder why I and other gay people give Christianity the stink eye. And of course, that should read _some_ other gay people. Many gay people (myself included) consider themselves gay and Christian. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/204 "2004-06-12T04:19:19Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > I wouldn’t. > You certainly have a right to do that. > Unlike gays, you probably wouldn’t find too many Christians being unhappy being christian and wanting your help, though. But **vanilla** , being unhappy about being gay is something that needs to be dealt with in itself, not by trying not to be gay. Orientation dysphoria is not an internally caused problem. It’s caused by a larger society that devalues everything you perceive yourself to be. In other words, the problem isn’t with being gay, it’s living in a non-gay world that basically hates you. The solution to this is not to try to change the unchangeable. It’s to learn to love yourself and basically say “FUCK YOU” to all the people who are trying to make you be something you’re not. It was a hell of a lot easier (and less damaging) to learn to say “FUCK YOU” to the world than it was to learn not to be gay. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/205 "2004-06-12T04:23:05Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > I wouldn’t. > You certainly have a right to do that. > Unlike gays, you probably wouldn’t find too many Christians being unhappy being christian and wanting your help, though. You would have found a lot more in ancient Rome, where Christians were the minority and were chastized, persecuted, beaten, and killed because of it. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/206 "2004-06-12T04:29:22Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > Unlike gays, you probably wouldn’t find too many Christians being unhappy being christian and wanting your help, though. But it’s not like people are beaten and killed on the street for being _perceived_ as being Christian. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/207 "2004-06-12T04:32:43Z")
Dang! Ignore that and let me start over, because I honestly did have a point here: > [@vanilla](#): > > I wouldn’t. > You certainly have a right to do that. > Unlike gays, you probably wouldn’t find too many Christians being unhappy being christian and wanting your help, though. You would have found a lot more in ancient Rome, where Christians were the minority and were chastized, persecuted, beaten, and killed because of it. You would have found many who denied Christ, not because it felt right to them, but because it was so difficult for them to live their lives in a society that persecuted them so much. They would have lived out the rest of their lives spiritually empty because they weren’t being true to themselves. And you would have found many who refused to deny it, and asked why they should even be expected to deny it. Of course, the difference is that people make a conscious decision to be Christian. People don’t make a conscious decision to be homosexual, they only make a conscious decision to be openly so. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/208 "2004-06-12T04:34:35Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > But **vanilla** , being unhappy about being gay is something that needs to be dealt with in itself, not by trying not to be gay. Orientation dysphoria is not an internally caused problem. It’s caused by a larger society that devalues everything you perceive yourself to be. In other words, the problem isn’t with being gay, it’s living in a non-gay world that basically hates you. > > . Is there a case of someone trying to change from being gay that wasn’t a christian or expecting God to do it? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/209 "2004-06-12T04:57:54Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > Is there a case of someone trying to change from being gay that wasn’t a christian or expecting God to do it? I don’t understand your point. It doesn’t matter if the person trying to change is Christian or Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist or Wiccan. And it doesn’t matter if they expect God, Vishnu, the Bodhisattva, the Mother or Cthulhu to do it. It doesn’t work! ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/210 "2004-06-12T05:24:00Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > Is there a case of someone trying to change from being gay that wasn’t a christian or expecting God to do it? And once again, I recommend Trembling Before G-d. One of the subjects did indeed consult a Kabbalist (a Jewish mystic) who gave him a list of certain psalms to recite and suggested certain changes to his diet (I remember something about eating more figs.). The man also went to the Western Wall, prayed to be made heterosexual and placed a note containing that prayer in the wall. That was ten years before the documentary was filmed. One segment shows his return to Israel and the Temple mount, this time putting a note in the wall asking G-d to help him accept his homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/211 "2004-06-12T06:01:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Guin, that’s precisely why reparative therapy, and its backers, are so evil: they harm people. They do permanent, scarring, psychological harm. And the lies don’t stick. If a person is truly gay, they can’t deny their reality forever. They will either become violently depressed, violently alcoholic, suicidal or – the best possible solution – honest about themselves again. Which then rips apart their innocent families. It’s a cycle of cruelty and hate, all brought to you by Team Jesus. I have only read of a couple of cases (though I’m sure there are lots more). But I think this is absolutely right on. Trying to force something that seems to be the impossible, upon someone will only hurt them, AND many others. The cases I was reading were of people who’d gotten married under the belief that they were straight, when in fact they were gay. The people in the study truly loved one another, but couldn’t deny their orientation, which caused double the pain and suffering. Not only had they been trying to be something they weren’t, now they’d hurt their wife/husband, whom they loved a great deal. In some cases there were children involved. No one really knows the answers to the problems raised by homosexuality, but this is ONE case where it seems pretty apparent that you do NOT try to force someone to “live a lie”. > [@](#): > > The APA has been very clear about the dangers of this. But fundamentalist Christians don’t care about the harm they do. They just care about pushing fags back into their caskets – I mean closets – and making sure they only fall to their knees to Jesus. And again, to do it in the name of Jesus just makes me see red. This is NOT what the bible teaches. Not at ALL. The hypocrisy, prejudice and hatred is exactly the opposite of what is taught. And stop polluting the word of God in such a way (not you spectrum, the fundie idiots who keep spreading such lies and hatred\< GRRRR). Hate of this nature is the furthest thing from what God wanted. Those people are as off-base an nutso as the mormon factions who think that once you get to Heaven, you get to "graduate and have your own planet’. Thanks fundie idiots, thanks a LOT. You’re NOT helping, shut up. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/212 "2004-06-12T06:04:10Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > Does it really kill you that someone can actually change and be happy about it? > Why? Why are you acting as such a cheerleader for the evil, gay-hating “reparation” movement? Why do you love the idea of gay men tortured with “aversion therapy” and scared with threats of Hell into a life in the closet? Why do you hate gay people so? Why? ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/213 "2004-06-12T06:06:22Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > Unlike gays, you probably wouldn’t find too many Christians being unhappy being christian and wanting your help, though. Yes, it’s nice being the oppressive majority instead of the oppressed minority, isn’t it, vanilla? If we used aversion therapy, including electric shock, to convert Christians, would that be okay? ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/214 "2004-06-12T06:22:07Z")
Quote: Originally Posted by CanvasShoes That’s silly, a piercing is a foriegn object, and a permanent physical change to the person’s body. > [@](#): > > You’ve missed the point. You said “If we consider homosexuality innate, that means that any other behaviour could be considered innate.” That’s false for the same reason that it would be false to state that because I have both brown hair and piercings, since the brown hair was innate, the piercings must be too. Umm, I wasn’t the one who quoted that, I was answering the person who disagreed with the poster who actually DID quote that. I said if you consider homosexual behavior to be inborn, then you could (meaning it could be said, NOT meaning it ShOULD be said) that any other behaviours could be said to be inborn too. And, as I stated in my post, many already have. Please note that I did NOT make any value judgment on this. Just added that it COULD be said to be true. Quote: It just doesn’t answer the question of origin, or cause (I hate that word “cause” so if someone has a better one). But it hasn’t covered, or answered what my question was. > [@](#): > > I stated earlier that other than finding it’s innate or very close to being innate, science has yet to determine which of several possible congenital causes it could be. I’m not quite sure the exact mechanism is relevant to the present discussion, however. Well, as I said originally, I haven’t seen scientific documentation to prove that it’s genetic/biological. Where scientific is medical/genetic, or biological research. And I would say the SAME thing about any other unproven theory. That homosexuality has been documented to be a trait that cannot be changed in an adult human, still doesn’t address the genetic/biological research and/or proof. And the way that it was relevent, or made me curious anyway, was that if it IS genetic, or is not genetic, to me, that would open possiblities to it’s being able to be changed (and again, DISCLAIMER, I am not saying that it NEEDS to be, just that there remains the scientific possibility, if something (anything, not just homosexuality) has not been proven. Quote: It just doesn’t answer the question of origin, or cause (I hate that word "He said he was totally homosexual, not to mention a violent person. He’s been married about 12 years now. I don’t know his mind or feelings, I know he doesn’t lie. He said Jesus healed him. > [@](#): > > Just because you sleep in a garage doesn’t make you a car. Umm, I Only posted the very FIRST line, that of “it does’t answer the question of origin”. Vanilla talked about the guy he’d known who’d been married for 12 years. PLEASE do not mix me up in that sort of belief system, I did NOT say anything of the kind. Do be careful whose posts you are attributing to whom. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/215 "2004-06-12T08:04:45Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > It’s intellectually credible because there is an abundance of anecdotal evidence that says this is the case. There have been stories posted here and several more stories and studies linked in various posts throughout the thread. Does that prove it 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt? Certainly not. But that’s a purely academic distinction. Anecdotal evidence comes nowhere close to proving an absolute, especially when you also have anecdotal evidence of people who said they chose to be gay, or became gay because of events, or stopped being gay. I’m sorry, I’m not going to accept anecdotes only going one way. Unless & until there is a definitive scientific answer, I’ll keep advocating the position of “We don’t know why any of us are the way we are; let’s all respect each other anyway.” Sounds crazy and intolerant, I know… ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/216 "2004-06-12T13:22:19Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > And of course, that should read _some_ other gay people. > > Many gay people (myself included) consider themselves gay and Christian. And others consider themselves gay and Republican. Doesn’t mean they’re welcomed with open arms. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/217 "2004-06-12T14:39:05Z")
To be fair, there are a number of Christian denominations that actually do support the rights of gays and lesbians – for example, the United Church of Canada, this country’s largest Protestant denomination. But your point is well taken; after all, these aren’t the churches that are sending people for “reparative therapy.” ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/218 "2004-06-12T14:56:03Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > Why are you acting as such a cheerleader for the evil, gay-hating “reparation” movement? > Why do you love the idea of gay men tortured with “aversion therapy” and scared with threats of Hell into a life in the closet? > Why do you hate gay people so? > Why? 1. I’m not. I mentioned one person I knew who did’t go through any therapy. 2.I don’t, never said I did. 3.I don’t hate gay people; everyone here knows I don’t. 4.I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/219 "2004-06-12T15:33:44Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > I don’t hate gay people; everyone here knows I don’t. It’s quite obvious “everyone” knows nothing of the kind. You choose to post in a lot of gay threads, **vanilla**. By posting you invite discussion and debate right back. “Everyone” is free to analyze the quality and nature of your stated tolerance. Don’t stir shit unless you have a really long spoon. Veb ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/220 "2004-06-12T15:40:04Z")
everyone is free to search all my posts and see what I have said. I think its quite obvious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543.md?page=12)