# One blogger's journey to undo his homosexuality... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 9, 2004, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543 "2004-06-09T23:15:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/241 "2004-06-13T04:36:53Z")
gobear, not goear. :o ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/242 "2004-06-13T04:38:58Z")
Vanilla, fundmentalism will be the death of any independence, intelligence and kindness that is within you. Fundamentalist Christianity is not a religion Jesus would appreciate – he hated the Pharisees, and what’s more Pharisetical than those literalist bastards nowadays? Find a real church. Methodist. Episcopalian (they’re great). Anywhere that they don’t go in for literalism, and they don’t come out with hate. Then maybe you’ll meet some Democrats, and stop regurgitating bullshit that makes people presume things about you that you think are not true. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/243 "2004-06-13T19:33:21Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > No, it isn’t. The action you describe is clearly self-destructive, whereas that action the blogger describes is only _probably_ self-destructive, and the only one who can determine how self-destructive it might be (if at all) is the person attempting it. All-in-all, it’s rather condescending of you to assume the blogger doesn’t know what’s good for him. Really? We have five pages of stories here, how many more pages do you need before they’ll rate an upgrade from “probably” to “clearly?” Is cutting oneself with razors only “clearly” destructive because you’ve done it yourself? If I can show you a handful of people who’ve cut themselves and claim to have come out okay, does that mean it goes back to being only “probably” destructive? Most importantly, at what point do you back off and ask why the hell anyone would need to be cutting himself up in the first place? There’s nothing condescending about “assuming” we know what the blogger wants. He says what he wants on the page, repeatedly. He wants to have sex with other men. He wants to feel spiritually complete, to have a stronger relationship with God. He wants to have a family with children. He wants to stop feeling shame for his sexual desires and sexual activities. He wants to stop having promiscuous sex. He wants to have healthy friendships with men. He wants to be masculine. He sees one of those as mutually exclusive from the rest. That’s destructive. Clearly. Not just for him, but for everyone. You want to talk destructive? Here’s my plan: I’m going to start up different blogs, with personal accounts of my valiant efforts to change an aspect of myself. In the first, I’ll describe how I’m black, and I’m constantly looting stores, causing unwanted pregnancies, and feel great shame every time I play basketball. Also, I’m addicted to crack cocaine. Therefore, I’ve made it my goal to become white. I’m sure a lot of black people will take offense and tell me I’m making a mistake, but who are they to be so condescending? In another, I’ll say that I’m a woman. I’m moody and am constantly talking about other people behind their backs. I’m manipulative, I’m terrible at math, I spend too much money on clothes, and I can’t make decisions. Therefore, I’ve made it my goal to become a man. Where do all these self-proclaimed feminists and transgendered people get off telling me what to do? Anyone who can see the obvious offensiveness of those examples, but still laud the blog from the OP as an example of self-determination, needs to ask whether he really does “have no problem with homosexuals,” or if that’s just as empty as saying “not that there’s anything _wrong_ with that.” ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/244 "2004-06-13T19:53:21Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > I’d like to meet a Christian Democrat! > The ones I know think Democrats are evil. Hello, **vanilla**. I’m SolGrundy. Nice to meet you. Grew up in a family that was very conservative religiously (Pentecostal), and fairly moderate politically (Democrat). Maybe that’s why it distresses me to see people throwing out terms like “Christian” and “Fundamentalist” and “Conservative” and “Gay” as if one aspect of a person determined every other thing about that person. It always distressed me to see so many Christians (where I’m from, usually Baptists) being arrogant enough to tell other people how to act, how to think, and how to live their lives. It would be like anyone here telling you that you have to change your religion. Which would be wrong and hypocritical for anyone to do. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/245 "2004-06-13T20:54:52Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > I can’t **prove** that getting hit by a train is going to kill you, but I’m still going to tell you to get out of the way. There are people who claim that they have chose to be gay, or that they have stopped being gay. There are far more people who claim that this is impossible, or at least that it can’t be done without causing serious harm. No, that’s not scientific proof, but it’s evidence enough that our society needs to be spending less time asking why or how it happens and more time learning how to deal with it constructively. > > The anecdotes are going both ways, but somehow they always manage to come back to gay people with value judgements attached. That’s fine, and I’d agree with telling people, especially adults, who are “trying to change” that the _odds_ are pretty heavily against them; that it _probably_ won’t work; that it is\* far more likely \* they’re going to wind up miserable. But I’d also say we need to accept the fact that sexuality is not a one-size-fits-all model, and that nobody knows for sure, and especially not those inclined to say “well I’m gay, therefore I know all there is to know about sexual orientation.” That’s just BS, and it’s the exact mirror image of the judgemental intolerance that says “of course” homosexuality is a choice. In my experience, just as some minorities have tried to tell themselves that “only white people can be racist,” some homosexuals seem to conclude that because they have been marginalized themselves, somehow it automatically makes their opinions tolerant and inclusive. It isn’t always the case. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/246 "2004-06-13T21:05:38Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > Anyone who says anything supportive about attempts to change sexuality supports the goals, and thus the movement, of reparative therapy. And that is sheer hatred of gay people. Unabashed, undeniable. Utterly absurd reasoning. Do you think this way politically? That anyone who supports raising the minimum wage supports the goals of communism? That anyone who supports privatising a government service supports Anarchism? > [@](#): > > Find a real church. Methodist. Episcopalian (they’re great). Anywhere that they don’t go in for literalism, and they don’t come out with hate. Speaking as an Episcopalian, I’m afraid I find telling other people what a “real church” is rather appalingly arrogant. Which is not to say I agree with anything **Vanilla** has said. But the cure for intolerance is not more of it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/247 "2004-06-14T02:58:00Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > Really? We have five pages of stories here, how many more pages do you need before they’ll rate an upgrade from “probably” to “clearly?” Five pages of anecdotal evidence (or even fifty pages) don’t prove a damn thing about this specific blogger. > [@](#): > > Most importantly, at what point do you back off and ask why the hell anyone would need to be cutting himself up in the first place? I don’t recognize the equivalence between self-cutting and what the blogger is attempting, so the question is moot. > [@](#): > > You want to talk destructive? Nah. I was never wishing pain on the blogger, only success. It’s you who are assuming success is impossible and pain inevitable. > [@](#): > > Here’s my plan: I’m going to start up different blogs, with personal accounts of my valiant efforts to change an aspect of myself. In the first, I’ll describe how I’m black, and I’m constantly looting stores, causing unwanted pregnancies, and feel great shame every time I play basketball. Also, I’m addicted to crack cocaine. Therefore, I’ve made it my goal to become white. I’m sure a lot of black people will take offense and tell me I’m making a mistake, but who are they to be so condescending? > > In another, I’ll say that I’m a woman. I’m moody and am constantly talking about other people behind their backs. I’m manipulative, I’m terrible at math, I spend too much money on clothes, and I can’t make decisions. Therefore, I’ve made it my goal to become a man. Where do all these self-proclaimed feminists and transgendered people get off telling me what to do? I can’t see a connection between these examples and what the blogger is doing, either. > [@](#): > > Anyone who can see the obvious offensiveness of those examples, but still laud the blog from the OP as an example of self-determination, needs to ask whether he really does “have no problem with homosexuals,” or if that’s just as empty as saying “not that there’s anything _wrong_ with that.” The offensiveness of the examples is irrelevant if the examples are also irrelevant. And actually, the blogger isn’t an example of self-determination until he succeeds, but there’s no point implying I have a problem with homosexuality. As far as I’m concerned, this has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality. It’s simply an example of many people saying to an individual that something is impossible, and me wanting the individual to respond “Fuck you, I’m going to try it anyway becuase that’s what I want to do.” The blogger’s plan strikes me as a waste of his time and effort, truth be told (though I can’t be sure, of course, what this man needs or feels he needs to make his life worth living), all to appease people who aren’t worth it. However, if he is determined to proceed anyway, I hope he succeeds and challenges all the people who say such a feat is impossible. Fuck 'em. Fuck 'em all ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/248 "2004-06-14T04:36:54Z")
Apparently we all stopped arguing the same point a while ago. I’m just repeating myself, taking paragraphs to say the same things **matt\_mcl** already said in just a sentence. I don’t see much need to keep kicking it around unless someone is saying something patently offensive, which they’re not. So just to clear up the loose ends: > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > there’s no point implying I have a problem with homosexuality. As far as I’m concerned, this has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality. It’s simply an example of many people saying to an individual that something is impossible, and me wanting the individual to respond “Fuck you, I’m going to try it anyway becuase that’s what I want to do.” Implying you have a problem with homosexuality was a cheap shot on my part. My point was that as far as I’m concerned, this has everything to do with homosexuality. If there’s no problem with it, what could anyone possibly find noble in someone’s wanting to change it? If you’re saying it’s good to ignore the input of an entire group of people just for the sake of being contrary, then I guess we’ll just have to disagree. > [@furt](#): > > But I’d also say we need to accept the fact that sexuality is not a one-size-fits-all model, and that nobody knows for sure, and especially not those inclined to say “well I’m gay, therefore I know all there is to know about sexual orientation.” That’s just BS, and it’s the exact mirror image of the judgemental intolerance that says “of course” homosexuality is a choice. > > In my experience, just as some minorities have tried to tell themselves that “only white people can be racist,” some homosexuals seem to conclude that because they have been marginalized themselves, somehow it automatically makes their opinions tolerant and inclusive. It isn’t always the case. That is true. And I can see how the argument could be interpreted as two sides fighting to control one person in order to support their own position, without regard for the person’s own desires. But I don’t see that as the case here. I don’t think the arguments are mirror images of each other. I see it as one side saying, “Love who you want to love,” and the other side saying, “Who you want to love is wrong.” And maybe I’m biased, but one of those sounds a lot more tolerant than the other. It’s not like we get referral bonuses or anything. I’m not trying to turn a young, confused guy, curious about his sexuality, into a gay man. Based on what I’ve read on that site, it’s pretty obvious to me that he’s already a gay man – he’s sexually attracted to men, but not to women. This isn’t a crucial junction point; it’s already happened. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/249 "2004-06-14T05:00:04Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > If there’s no problem with it, what could anyone possibly find noble in someone’s wanting to change it? The blogger believes (rightly or wrongly - in my opinion, almost certainly the latter) that his homosexuality is making him unhappy. Since only he can decide what makes him happy or unhappy, I support his attempts to change his life as he sees fit and would like to see him succeed. > [@](#): > > If you’re saying it’s good to ignore the input of an entire group of people just for the sake of being contrary, then I guess we’ll just have to disagree. Contrariness for it’s own sake? No. But ignoring the input of an entire group of people in order to pursue one’s own goals (however one defines them) in order to improve one’s own life is something I can definitely support on its face. This pro-individualism stance has been repeatedly mistaken for an anti-homosexuality one. Not my problem. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/250 "2004-06-14T06:14:42Z")
Yes, let’s “fuck 'em,” and give the anti-gay movement another brainwashed liar living a false life with a fake smile. Let’s give more ammunition to those seeking to eliminate all homosexuals everywhere through forced re-closeting and brainwashing. You’re no better than the sick fucks who shocked my friend Jeff to “fix him.” You’re no better than his worthless fucking parents who handed him over to them. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/251 "2004-06-14T12:46:20Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > I wouldn’t. > You certainly have a right to do that. > Unlike gays, you probably wouldn’t find too many Christians being unhappy being christian and wanting your help, though. The reason for that is that you can BAIL from Christianity when it makes you unhappy. It happens all the time. There are probably more ex-Christians than there are Christians. You can’t bail from homosexuality. You can cease and desist, behavior-wise, but being gay isn’t who you _sleep_ with…it’s who youj_are._ ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/252 "2004-06-14T12:48:47Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > Is there a case of someone trying to change from being gay that wasn’t a christian or expecting God to do it? Only every fucking _day!_ ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/253 "2004-06-14T12:59:47Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > **But if he is suppressing his gayness for the church, then he sure seems happy about it.** Happy on the outside. Shit, he doesn’t have to live in fear of beatings, in fear of not being accepted by HIS OWN FUCKING CHURCH, his family, his boss. Of COURSE he looks happy. Who wouldn’t? But inside, he is probably miserable. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/254 "2004-06-14T13:19:33Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > He claimed he was no longer gay, ot just not having sex with other men > > he said healed, meaning gayness is something God can change(heal as it were) > I should use quotes more. > > I Know I’m not a bigot. > o church I have attended has had the pastor wearing a collar, usually just a suit or shirt and pants. You are supporting someone who looks at homosexuality as something that needs to be “healed”, something you yourself believe is a defect, and you don’t see the bigotry there? I seem to recall a thread in the last couple months where you alienated nearly every gay friend you ever made on these boards. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/255 "2004-06-14T13:45:33Z")
Woah, vanilla has referred to homosexuality as a “defect”? What a load of horseshit. The ability to swallow fundamentalist Christian glurge, that’s a defect. Loving other people who just happen to be of the same gender is NOT. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/256 "2004-06-14T13:54:32Z")
again, you have it wrong. HE said he was healed, I did not say it was a disease or defect; he implied that. I am the reporter not the man himself. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/257 "2004-06-14T14:05:31Z")
By simply ‘reporting’ his words as though they were fact, you are aiding one of the greatest evils in modern America. The reparative movement hurts people. It scars them psychologically. It kills people. It drives others into the living death of living a lie. And all who support it, all who refuse to stand against it, are in turn partly culpable for the sheer evil that it causes. Supporting the reparative movement is just another form of gay bashing. Participating in reparative therapy should be a hate crime. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/258 "2004-06-14T14:07:51Z")
sigh. Note that I never said or believed that I support any reparative therapy anything. Thank you. Please get the facts straight. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/259 "2004-06-14T14:09:42Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > Woah, vanilla has referred to homosexuality as a “defect”? . You _could_ admit I never referred to it as such. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2004, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/260 "2004-06-14T14:18:31Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > Note that I never said or believed that I support any reparative therapy anything. By proffering as fact the lies this closeted man of the clothe sold you, you are lending moral support to the evil, disgusting aims of the reparative movement. If this were a war between nations, instead of just a war for survival by innocent gays everywhere who will be culturally wiped out if the reparative monsters get their way, you’d be executed for treason. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543.md?page=14)