# One blogger's journey to undo his homosexuality... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 9, 2004, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543 "2004-06-09T23:15:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/61 "2004-06-10T16:48:00Z")
I was not aware that homosexuality had been scientifically proven to be a natural biological trait in humans. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/62 "2004-06-10T16:51:31Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > Sexuality is not a “pattern of behavior,” it is a core, unchangeable trait like gender or eye color. Gender is a social status, gender is not bioloigcally determined and can be changed. Sex is not gender. That aside, I really don’t understand those that claim that there is “straight” and “homosexual,” and that such “orientations” are biologically determined and set in stone. How does this explain bisexual people? Is there three orientations? I would like to see some evidence against the fact that there may not be orientations, just a simple fact that a portion of the population likes both sexes, and some of those that like both sexes tend to prefer thier sex over the opposite due to other circumstances. (Socioloigcal, developmental, etc) I think it is patently absurd that those going on about the difference between homesexual and heterosexual never, ever seem to discuss bisexual tendencies. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/63 "2004-06-10T16:52:08Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > I was not aware that homosexuality had been scientifically proven to be a natural biological trait in humans. Homosexuality occurs naturally in many species, including humans. Read **Biological Exuberance : animal homosexuality and natural diversity** , by Bruce Bagemihl. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/64 "2004-06-10T16:55:41Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Homosexuality occurs naturally in many species, including humans. Read **Biological Exuberance : animal homosexuality and natural diversity** , by Bruce Bagemihl. Really? Homosexuality occurs naturally? Where? Is it true homosexuality or is it bisexual tendencies? Or is it artificually induced, like putting two male dogs or monkeys in a cage for an extended amount of time? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/65 "2004-06-10T17:03:32Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > That aside, I really don’t understand those that claim that there is “straight” and “homosexual,” and that such “orientations” are biologically determined and set in stone. How does this explain bisexual people? Is there three orientations? I think that, at least on this board, people realize that. It’s just that the mods balk when **Esprix** posts OPs like “Ask the guy who gravitates towards the homosexual end of the sexual orientation spectrum.” It’s also a bitch to type. Having said that, I do sometimes wonder about the claim that we’re all have a little bit of homosexuality in our psyches. I may just be in denial, but I can honestly say that I’ve never once had the desire to engage in any homosexual behavior at all. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/66 "2004-06-10T17:14:11Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > Really? Homosexuality occurs naturally? Where? Is it true homosexuality or is it bisexual tendencies? Or is it artificually induced, like putting two male dogs or monkeys in a cage for an extended amount of time? Bonobo monkeys exhibit bisexual behavior in the wild. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/67 "2004-06-10T17:18:55Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Homosexuality occurs naturally in many species, including humans. Read **Biological Exuberance : animal homosexuality and natural diversity** , by Bruce Bagemihl. I have seen studies in which they have shown that some mammals engage in homosexual ACTS. My question/comment, was on a scientic proof that homosexUALITY was a natural trait in HUMANS, as in that they form partnerships with only those of the opposite sex. _ **PLEASE NOTE** _, I am NOT in any way, shape or form 'dissing" or dismissing, or invalidating the rights of individuals to be homosexual. My question was about the origin in humans only. Because, if it isn’t a biological imperitive (such as skin color, something a human biologically can NOT change), and rather is psychologically based (and again, I’m NOT saying there is anything wrong with that, even if that is the origin), why wouldn’t it be possible to change it? And again, I am NOT saying that it should be changed, I’m talking of the possibility, NOT in any way making a statement on whether it should. (sorry for all the disclaimers, but I’ve seen questions based on mere curiosity become fodder for a total meltdown too many times). ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/68 "2004-06-10T17:26:31Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > Gender is a social status, gender is not bioloigcally determined and can be changed. Sex is not gender. Okay, then I used the wrong term. But sex cannot change. You can have all the operations you want, and pump your body full of hormones, but your underlying genetic sex changes nilch. Just like my hair color changes not one bit when I dye it. Nor my eyes if I wear colored contacts. Nor did my sexuality when I forced myself to sleep with women as part of an attempt to “change” myself that lasted for a decade. > [@](#): > > That aside, I really don’t understand those that claim that there is “straight” and “homosexual,” and that such “orientations” are biologically determined and set in stone. How does this explain bisexual people? Is there three orientations? There is a spectrum of sexuality, from totally straight to totally gay, and everyone falls along that spectrum somewhere. From the external evidence it looks something like a lopsided inverted Bell Curve, with most people falling near the totally straight point, a small minority near the totally gay point, and a scattered few in the middle. But where you are on the spectrum cannot be changed. One cannot move from homosexual to heterosexual. It simply isn’t possible. If it were, I would have. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/69 "2004-06-10T17:29:46Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > I have seen studies in which they have shown that some mammals engage in homosexual ACTS. > > My question/comment, was on a scientic proof that homosexUALITY was a natural trait in HUMANS, as in that they form partnerships with only those of the opposite sex. How would you define homosexUALITY? And what scientific proof would you use? And what is it about the UALITY part that’s endemic to humanity? I think when it all comes down to it, you’re asking a moot point. A lot of it is subjective. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/70 "2004-06-10T17:30:03Z")
There have been some delightfully funny stories recently about a pair of gay penguins (Wendell and… something) in the New York Zoo, I believe. There are plenty of females around to mate with, but these two have bonded together and been a “couple” (penguins typically mate for life) for years now. They even are raising an “adopted” baby penguin. I need to find the article. I think it was titled “The Love that Dare Not Squeak It’s Name.” ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/71 "2004-06-10T17:39:17Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > Really? Homosexuality occurs naturally? Where? Is it true homosexuality or is it bisexual tendencies? Or is it artificually induced, like putting two male dogs or monkeys in a cage for an extended amount of time? Homosexual behavior does exist in nature, but parsing out whether it’s caused by stress, lack of opposite sex opportunities, or innate wiring and /or hormonal issues is going to be pretty tough to determine without being able to communicate directly with the animal, or understand how it’s physically put together and mentally wired virtually down to the molecular level. There are some bio-sociological opinions out there that homsexuality, in moderate percentages, is not necessarily a wholly undesirable trait that would be selected against in primate groups, as this produces vigorous individuals that often (historically at least) assume caretaking roles in the raising of children, and do not compete for opposite sex mates. Homosexuals (male and female) in this context are the very (socially) useful “nannies” of tribes, villages etc. that allow primate groups to thrive, and as society has becomes more complex, this role has become even more useful. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/72 "2004-06-10T17:39:58Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > But where you are on the spectrum cannot be changed. One cannot move from homosexual to heterosexual. It simply isn’t possible. I would qualify your statements with “most likely.” When do you believe in a person’s development is orientation set? At birth? Before birth? Before puberty? I know there is contention on this, but let’s suppose that it’s sometime after birth. Let’s also suppose that there are environmental forces at work which help to determine orientation. Then we can say that at some point, a person’s orientation _can_ be changed. We can then ask when this malleable state becomes permanent. At age 8? 10? 12.4757? It would seem to me that it’s never fully set, but becomes more ingrained with age. Of course, I would argue that once a person self-identifies as gay, there’s little to no chance of going back. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/73 "2004-06-10T17:40:26Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > But where you are on the spectrum cannot be changed. One cannot move from homosexual to heterosexual. It simply isn’t possible. > > If it were, I would have. Well, I would call cite, but since you cannot change, that MUST mean it is impossible. Well, that answers it for me. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/74 "2004-06-10T17:45:14Z")
Fuck you. Do you know what I went through? What I put myself through? What most gay men put themselves through? Do you think we would stay gay if we could change it? The depression, the suicide attempts, we choose this? Fuck you. Your entire line of questioning in this thread has been a giant gay bash from post 1, and I’m sorry I even tried to communicate with you. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/75 "2004-06-10T17:48:58Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > How would you define homosexUALITY? And what scientific proof would you use? And what is it about the UALITY part that’s endemic to humanity? I think when it all comes down to it, you’re asking a moot point. A lot of it is subjective. Well, JEEZ, this is why I was asking those that WOULD know. I in NO way even remotely pretended to know any facts about homosexuality in humans. Many on these boards do. Hence the QUESTIONS as opposed to statements, and the millions of disclaimers so as NOT to cause the kind of backlash you slightly display here. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/76 "2004-06-10T17:51:43Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I would qualify your statements with “most likely.” I wouldn’t. The only people who can “switch sides” are switch hitters already. > [@](#): > > When do you believe in a person’s development is orientation set? At birth? Before birth? Before puberty? For as long as I have been conscious of some sort of sexual attraction to other people (probably around 11-ish), it has been gay. That was before puberty. Looking farther back, I had the stereotypical “gender inappropriate” play/whatever for as long as I had contact with other kids. So I’d side with the “before birth” faction. I think that there is a clear genetic component to homosexuality, but that the genetic predisposition alone is not determinative, as twin studies have shown. > [@](#): > > I know there is contention on this, but let’s suppose that it’s sometime after birth. Let’s also suppose that there are environmental forces at work which help to determine orientation. Then we can say that at some point, a person’s orientation _can_ be changed. We can then ask when this malleable state becomes permanent. At age 8? 10? 12.4757? It would seem to me that it’s never fully set, but becomes more ingrained with age. If it wasn’t fully set, if it could be changed, none of the gay men I know would be gay. Unless you “it can be changed” folks are accusing us of not being strong enough, or honest enough, or loving Jesus enough to “fix” ourselves. And how do you define “self-identify as gay”? Was it when I was 12 and realized I had a crush on Wesley Crusher and then spent the next ten years of my life beating the mental crap out of myself to “fix” me? Or was it when I came out, having finally realized that there’s nothing wrong with who I am, and that anyone who says otherwise is my enemy, not my parent, not my friend, and that they mean nothing in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/77 "2004-06-10T17:53:54Z")
Canvas, something about the wording and tone of your questions, perhaps the flat declartiveness, is very off-putting. Borderline offensive. The first post you had in here came off as a Christian fundie bigot shrugging off the naturalness of homosexuality, at least to me. That may explain some of the fact that you’re not getting the responses you expected. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/78 "2004-06-10T17:59:40Z")
> [@Epimetheus](#): > > Well, I would call cite, but since you cannot change, that MUST mean it is impossible. Well, that answers it for me. :rolleyes: Why wouldn’t it? I don’t see what you’re going to find that’s better evidence of (im)mutability. You want to read something written by a scientist, based on his observations, but you don’t trust the words of the people who have to live it every day? Seems to me that of the three of us, assuming that you’re straight, **spectrum** would be the best qualified to tell us if a gay man could turn straight. **CanvasShoes,** I didn’t read **tdn’s** post as belittling the question or anything, I just thought **tdn** was pointing out that what you were asking depends largely on personal definitions and boundaries. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/79 "2004-06-10T18:04:57Z")
I’m sure other gay men would chime in in agreement with what I said. I know it’s true for EVERY gay man I know personally in my life – tried to change, didn’t work, because it can’t be changed. So while I may be representative of gay men, I’d prefer not to be offered up as A representative of gay men. If only because I think that’d hurt the cause; I’m not particularly well-liked around here, and I have a shorter temper than most. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/80 "2004-06-10T18:07:53Z")
> [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > **CanvasShoes,** I didn’t read **tdn’s** post as belittling the question or anything, I just thought **tdn** was pointing out that what you were asking depends largely on personal definitions and boundaries. Thank you. I meant nothing snarky or disrespectful, and I’m sorry if I came off that way. What I meant to say was that as soon as you try to get into specific definitions like that, you’ll find yourself in trouble. There is an enormous amount of grey area in this subject. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543.md?page=5)