# One blogger's journey to undo his homosexuality... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 9, 2004, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543 "2004-06-09T23:15:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/121 "2004-06-10T20:20:10Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > OK, let’s look at it this way. Suppose I gave you a lobotomy. Would you still be gay? How about if I killed you? You wouldn’t be gay then, would you? You’d stop my behavior, but you wouldn’t change my orientation. I’d be dead, but I’d still have been gay. That’s a change, and it’s entirely possible. Now don’t get me wrong – I like you, and would never ever want to harm you. [/quote] You might not, but there are some folks who think killing me would be doing their Christian duty. After all, the Bible prescribes death for men who lie with men. > [@](#): > > So can a person change his sexuality by simply wishing it to be so? If sexuality is entirely a psychological phenomenon (as opposed to genetic), I don’t see why not. The mind can do some pretty amazing things. But it would be a huge task. It would fail an overwhelming part of the time. And in the real world, it probably can’t be done. But in theory, it’s possible. You seem to think that “theory” is synonymous with “wildly unsubstantiated guess.” Perhaps that’s so in popular usage, but in science a theory is a general principle backed by data to explain certain set of phenomena. You need to bring something more to the table than a bald assertion if you wish to contradict the vast amount of data backing immutability. So where’s the lab work? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/122 "2004-06-10T20:20:57Z")
But where does that get anyone, **tdn**? I mean, if we assume that, through brain surgery or Clockwork Orange treatment or something, or even through intensive therapy, you could make a gay man stop being gay, how does that make it worthwhile to attempt the change in the first place? There’s an implication there that there’s something fundamentally wrong with homosexuality. I think that’s a problem with debating whether or not you can make a gay man straight. If it’s not a choice, why is it wrong to be gay? Since the only real problems people have with homosexuality come from religious grounds, and since the religious argument is that homosexuals are turning their backs on God, it’s a complete contradiction. On the one hand, we have to alter their brain chemistry for them not to be gay, but on the other, we condemn them for their activity based on the premise that it’s a choice. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/123 "2004-06-10T20:28:25Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > That’s absolutely ridiculous. That’s like saying that since I was born with brown hair, I must have been born with ear piercings. That’s silly, a piercing is a foriegn object, and a permanent physical change to the person’s body. What it is REALLY like is like saying 'I was born with the absolute immutable need to express myself in this manner, in other words, putting pieces of metal in my skin" NOT in the physical manifestation(the metal object) of the need to express by itself. Anyway, I agree with him. Saying “I was born that way” COULD be extended to any and all behaviours. and has been extended to many, not just homosexuality. Alcoholism for instance. The propensity to addictive personalities is said to be something one is “born with”. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/124 "2004-06-10T20:30:42Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Alright, established science, then. We should never question established science? I’d remind you that by doing so, scientific findings improve. Absolutely, so like I said, where’s the lab work? By all means, question the conventional wisdom, but you don’t do that by declaring, “Well, maybe it ain’t so.” That’s just making a claim with no substance behind it. > [@](#): > > And yet this same science cannot explain the origins of homosexuality. Should we dig in with that stance and examine the issue no further? That’s not science that’s dogma. Who said that we should examine the evidence no further? What I’m saying is that you have to bring evidence to back up your statements. So far, you’ve brought zip, and we have have brought plenty. Frankly, you are beginning to argue like a creationist does, denying the moutain of evidence for a scientific theory and thinking that simple negation is enough to win the argument. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/125 "2004-06-10T20:37:18Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > None-the-less, I still don’t buy the argument that a gay is “born that way.” By that line of argument, we could explain _ **all** _ behavior as being “born that way.” That’s such a stupid statement that it is beneath response, but here you go: homosexuality is not a behavior. Not even remotely. It is an orientation. A gay person who never has sex with another member of his/her own gender is just as gay as a real life version of Brian Kinney would be. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/126 "2004-06-10T20:41:41Z")
> [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > But where does that get anyone, **tdn**? I mean, if we assume that, through brain surgery or Clockwork Orange treatment or something, or even through intensive therapy, you could make a gay man stop being gay, how does that make it worthwhile to attempt the change in the first place? It doesn’t, as I’ve been saying all along. Even if science developed an anti-gay pill, I would oppose its use. And it’s clear that science isn’t about to do any such thing in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/127 "2004-06-10T20:42:48Z")
> [@](#): > > At least partly, yes. See above. Then, see [The Kinsey Scale](http://www.indiana.edu/~kinsey/resources/ak-hhscale.html): > > 0/heterosexual – 1 – 2 – 3/bisexual – 4 – 5 – 6/homosexual > > Everyone falls somewhere along this continuum. Even I can admit to being a 5.99999 (repeating) as I lust after one woman and one woman only. (Sadly, the lovely Sophia Loren has stopped returning my phone calls [☹] since I became engaged to **Q**. [🙂]) > > I think you are confusing “common wisdom” with “decades of research worth of proof.” > > Esprix All that you, and others have posted here, have been reports and studies of phsychologists saying why homosexuality EXISTS. Not how it CAME to exist. And none of it is from, as I originally asked, scientific research. Sorry, my fault, I didn’t define what I meant by scientific. I mean biologists, medical researchers and those in the fields covering human physiology. Yes, psychology is “a” science. And again, as I’ve said in many other posts. I don’t believe that the origin, or “cause” whatever it may be, in ANY way changes that which you and others have cited from psychologists, that of orientation not being able to be changed, and/or that it’s a valid way of being. It just doesn’t answer the question of origin, or cause (I hate that word “cause” so if someone has a better one). But it hasn’t covered, or answered what my question was. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/128 "2004-06-10T21:03:14Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Absolutely, so like I said, where’s the lab work? By all means, question the conventional wisdom, but you don’t do that by declaring, “Well, maybe it ain’t so.” That’s just making a claim with no substance behind it. > > Who said that we should examine the evidence no further? What I’m saying is that you have to bring evidence to back up your statements. So far, you’ve brought zip, and we have have brought plenty. > > Frankly, you are beginning to argue like a creationist does, denying the moutain of evidence for a scientific theory and thinking that simple negation is enough to win the argument. First of all, comparing me to a creationist is fightin’ words. Secondly, when I say “theoretically”, I mean wild-ass guess. Yes, I am aware of the difference, and I realize that I am throwing that word around irresponsibly. My bad. But the evidence you bring to the table was collected by psychologists who were working within a moral framework of a clinical setting. I deal with this every day, from my job (in a hospital where clinical data is collected – by me – constantly) to my girlfriend (who is a psychologist and sets up research experiments all the time). Plus, I took the IRB exam and passed with flying colors. The thing is, within that framework, there are only so many things that researchers are allowed to do. Psychologists are not allowed to give lobotomies to see if someone becomes less fabulous. It’s immoral and the IRB would come down hard on them. And that’s a good thing. But then the results of such studies apply only to research done within that framework. Data that’s available only from outside that framework is anybody’s guess. Had the same work been done by Dr. Joseph Mengele, the data might look quite different. Not that I’d want that crazy fucker experimenting on anyone. So you’re right, I have brought no evidence to the party, but the evidence you bring is only applicable to a subset of all possible situations. So I can still hold onto my theory that given an odd set of circumstances, orientation can be changed. And by theory, I mean wild-ass guess. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/129 "2004-06-10T21:19:11Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > I find mushrooms oogy Sicko. I’m going to force-feed you my mom’s stuffed mushrooms until you develop a Hobbit-esque affinity for fungus. 😉 Did anyone notice the guy is now linking to our thread? Anyone who has made a “successful” change would have to be bisexual to begin with, I would guess. This blog made me sad. If it’s real, then he’s in some serious need of help and love and I hope he finds it. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/130 "2004-06-10T21:20:35Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > Fuck you. Do you know what I went through? What I put myself through? What most gay men put themselves through? Do you think we would stay gay if we could change it? . are you really saying you would and most other gays would change being gay if you could? It can’t be that good a thing then is what you are saying. I know a man who changed. No he is not living a lie. Yes, he was truly gay. ow he is ot. Why does this infuriate people? ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/131 "2004-06-10T21:28:41Z")
[QUOTE=captaindoesnotlikeyou] Ug. I started from the very beginning of that and immediately got the feeling that this blog isn’t being written by some tortured gay college student, but a middle aged member of some anti-gay group. [QUOTE] No, I think it’s for real. “Ben’s” blog links to another blog written by a young man with a whole lotta things in common with “Ben.” I’d name it, but I’m not sure if that would be ethical or not. Add to the debate? Eh, I got nothing. ---
**Author:** ![jkusters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/fbc32d/32.png) [@jkusters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jkusters)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/132 "2004-06-10T21:29:59Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I once asked the following question to the gays on this board: “If there were a magic pill you could take that would instantly transform you into a heterosexual, would you take it?” > > If I recall correctly, the overwhelming response was “No.” I my opinion, this means the statement “Do you think I would _choose_ being gay?!” is a lie. Extrapolated all that from a one-word answer, did you? Did you ask _why_ they said “no”? In my case, it would invalidate everything I went through as an adolescent, all of the work I’ve done for equality, and would invalidate the very special relationship I’ve been in for the past eleven years. But since I would answer “no” to your overly simplistic question, I must want to choose to be gay, right? JOhn. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/133 "2004-06-10T21:30:02Z")
forgive my keyboard. The N sometimes doesn’t show up unless you pound it hard. That bit should read Now he is Not. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/134 "2004-06-10T21:30:40Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > are you really saying you would and most other gays would change being gay if you could? > It can’t be that good a thing then is what you are saying. > > I know a man who changed. No he is not living a lie. > Yes, he was truly gay. > ow he is ot. > > Why does this infuriate people? I s’pose the baby jesus fixed his gay self, huh? ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/135 "2004-06-10T21:30:44Z")
As I said before, being generally not liked and more short-tempered than most, I am NOT holding myself up as a representative example of all gays on this board. But your friend is either still gay, or was bisexual. No gay person can invert their sexuality like that, anymore than I could will myself to grow blond hair and recolor my eyes green. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/136 "2004-06-10T21:33:03Z")
**vanilla** , how well do you know this guy that you can say for sure? Perhaps he’s really bi? **Crafter\_Man** -why does the fact that they don’t want to change now matter? What’s wrong with them choosing to STAY gay, if given a choice? Would you CHOOSE to stay straight, if given a choice? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/137 "2004-06-10T21:33:38Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Absolutely, so like I said, where’s the lab work? By all means, question the conventional wisdom, but you don’t do that by declaring, “Well, maybe it ain’t so.” That’s just making a claim with no substance behind it. > Who said that we should examine the evidence no further? What I’m saying is that you have to bring evidence to back up your statements. So far, you’ve brought zip, and we have have brought plenty. > > Frankly, you are beginning to argue like a creationist does, denying the moutain of evidence for a scientific theory and thinking that simple negation is enough to win the argument. Well, what about genetic alteration science that is all over the place right now? It isn’t perfected, but IF homosexuality turned out to be a genetic issue, and IF they were able to massage genes to make someone hetero, wouldn’t that count? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/138 "2004-06-10T21:42:14Z")
Guin, spectrum; He was a deacon in a church I had belonged to. He said he was totally homosexual, not to mention a violent person. He’s been married about 12 years now. I don’t know his mind or feelings, I know he doesn’t lie. He said Jesus healed him. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/139 "2004-06-10T21:45:50Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > No gay person can invert their sexuality like that, anymore than I could will myself to grow blond hair and recolor my eyes green. I am naturally brunette. If I could I would most definitely wilkl myself to blonde. It costs a lot to get it done. This, of course, means theres nothing wrong with being brunette, its just not my preference. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543/140 "2004-06-10T21:46:19Z")
He does lie. He is a liar. He’s an agent of evil, and a soldier in the Army of Hate that hopes to someday wipe out all gays in America through brainwashing and Bible banging. Gay reparation is one of the greatest evils in America today. By supporting, he – and you – are partially culpable for the pain, suffering and death it causes. There will be a special place in Hell for the reparators. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-bloggers-journey-to-undo-his-homosexuality/249543.md?page=8)