# One doozie of a Catch-22 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [April 30, 2003, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-doozie-of-a-catch-22/172095 "2003-04-30T06:40:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-doozie-of-a-catch-22/172095/21 "2003-05-16T19:59:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by fgarriel \* > \*\*It all depends on the state, but when I got my license in New Jersey, it was even more strict. The car’s brake pedal (or emergency brake) had to be accessible from the passenger side of the car. In most states, you can buy a car without having a driver’s license. Without a license, you may have trouble registering or insuring it though, which would bring you back to step 1. \*\* This is not as silly as it sounds. The accessible rule means that you can’t have a center console in between driver and passenger. That’s in case the as yet unlicensed driver is about to do something to endanger someone and the testing inspector or driving instructor needs to prevent this. I believe this rule is in effect when you are on your learner’s permit, too. The provide-your-own-car rule is not that silly. Look, the learner’s permit allows you to drive _if you have someone in the car with you that is teaching you._ Otherwise, how would you practice? Presumably that person, whether it’s a friend, relative or paid professional, has obtained a vehicle for that purpose. So one day instead of taking you out to teach you more driving skills he or she takes you to the DMV office, where a DMV person gets in the car while the instructor waits. Where’s the problem? If you have no friends, no family, and no money to pay a driving instructor, you have greater problems than transportation, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2003, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-doozie-of-a-catch-22/172095/22 "2003-05-21T14:01:58Z")
**AndrewT** , stop being dense. It’s a limited case catch-22 that doesn’t apply to everyone. That was stated up front. Go reread the OP. **MLS** , as stated by the OP, he learned to drive in another country, so he really didn’t need driving lessons, he just needed to get the license. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-doozie-of-a-catch-22/172095/23 "2003-05-22T17:53:45Z")
The answer has been provided here, and skipped over. If there was really a lot instances of this, the driving schools and car rental places would provide a car and a licensed driver to accompany you to the test for a price. In almost all cases, it’s not a problem, of course, so no market has developed for this solution. As pointed out by Mike H’s experience, if you actually take a course with a driving instructor, you can probably use their car for the test, accompanied by the instructor. A variant of this was commonplace in high schools when I learned to drive. The insurance companies gave reductions if a teenage driver had completed driver’s ed, so almost every kid took it. The high school driver’s ed course included the teacher accompanying you to the test, and taking the test in the school car. In fact, the teacher generally spent your last couple of sessions driving around the course the cop was probably going to take you through. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-doozie-of-a-catch-22/172095/24 "2003-05-22T18:04:59Z")
BTW, I’m not suggesting that “driving instructor” = “solution”. I should have made it clearer that those remarks were an aside. My point was simply that if there were a lot of instances of the problem, somebody would be marketing a service to fix it. ---
**Author:** ![j.c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@j.c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j.c)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-doozie-of-a-catch-22/172095/25 "2003-05-23T01:24:29Z")
I wish people were required to take their driving test in random cars. You show up without knowing if you’ll be driving a Mini Cooper or a giant SUV or a wobbling mini van. Better test. Like with an oral where you don’t know exactly which subject they’ll throw at you. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-doozie-of-a-catch-22/172095/26 "2003-05-23T03:01:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Loopus \* > \*\*I didn’t even have to take a driving test in order to get my license, though I did have to bring written proof that I had attended a driving school. The school provided a car. \*\* ditto ---
**Author:** ![dauerbach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c2a13f/32.png) [@dauerbach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dauerbach)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-doozie-of-a-catch-22/172095/27 "2003-05-27T15:48:40Z")
At least in Maryland it is impossible to obtain a drivers permit without a licensed driver with you. They have you drive around and check your companion to assure that they have a valid license. If you said mom is in the bathroom they would not allow you to begin the test, and would not even let you drive away. You would be screwed big time. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithroaches](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8797f3/32.png) [@danceswithroaches](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithroaches)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-doozie-of-a-catch-22/172095/28 "2003-05-28T07:41:42Z")
Here’s a big surprise: You don’t need a license to drive a car. Every citizen has the right to travel and transport his property on public roads. You only need the license to conduct a business on the road. So you are within your rights to drive to the exam. (Don’t expect the authorities to admit any such thing. They have jobs to protect.) ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-doozie-of-a-catch-22/172095/29 "2003-05-28T09:42:29Z")
There’s a danceswith_roaches_ now? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-doozie-of-a-catch-22/172095/30 "2003-05-28T13:57:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by danceswithroaches \* > \*\*Here’s a big surprise: You don’t need a license to drive a car. Every citizen has the right to travel and transport his property on public roads. You only need the license to conduct a business on the road. So you are within your rights to drive to the exam. (Don’t expect the authorities to admit any such thing. They have jobs to protect.) \*\* Here’s a bigger surprise: That is not the law in Indiana. > [@](#): > > IC 9-24-1-1 > License required > Sec. 1. Except as provided in section 6 or 7 of this chapter, an individual must have a valid Indiana: > (1) operator’s license; > (2) chauffeur’s license; > (3) public passenger chauffeur’s license; > (4) learner’s permit; > (5) commercial driver’s license; or > (6) motorcycle operator’s license or endorsement; > issued to the individual by the bureau under this article to drive upon an Indiana highway the type of motor vehicle for which the license or permit was issued. And > [@](#): > > IC 9-13-2-73 > Highway or street > Sec. 73. “Highway” or “street” means the entire width between the boundary lines of every publicly maintained way when any part of the way is open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel. The term includes an alley in a city or town. Note that nowhere in the law does it state anything about “conduct business” or words to that effect. Congressional regulation of “interstate commerce” is immaterial, since the Constitution states: > [@](#): > > Amendment X > > The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. Licensure of drivers is one of these “powers”. The Congress, therefore, has no right to interfere with the practice of state driver’s licenses, since it is only empowered to regulate commerce “among the states”, not commerce and travel within a state. An argument _might_ be possible that a purely interstate concern could get away with non-licensure of drivers might be raised–but in that case, an equally as strong case in favor of Federal licensure of such drivers (with all that would entail) could be made. Your scofflaw claims have no basis, whatsoever, in fact. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-doozie-of-a-catch-22/172095/31 "2003-05-28T16:52:26Z")
I didn’t know trolls could drive. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-doozie-of-a-catch-22/172095/32 "2003-05-28T20:25:23Z")
**Jeff,** please be careful, this is not the forum for insults. There’s no evidence of trolling here, and in fact the Moderator has independent evidence of non-trolling. Perhaps the poster is a bit too gullible. But even if there were evidence of trolling, it should be reported to a moderator rather than commented on publicly in this forum, please. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-doozie-of-a-catch-22/172095/33 "2003-05-28T20:40:49Z")
My apologies, shoulda kept quiet. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-doozie-of-a-catch-22/172095/34 "2003-05-28T20:59:34Z")
No prob, we’re still friends. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-doozie-of-a-catch-22/172095/35 "2003-05-29T10:02:29Z")
Quoted from danceswithroaches: Here’s a big surprise: You don’t need a license to drive a car. Every citizen has the right to travel and transport his property on public roads. You only need the license to conduct a business on the road. So you are within your rights to drive to the exam. (Don’t expect the authorities to admit any such thing. They have jobs to protect.) I don’t know where exactly you got this impression, but I’m assuming you’re in the US (since people outside this country generally don’t assume they have the right to do things just because there are no signs saying they can’t)… the suggestion that every citizen has the right to travel and transport his property on public roads is entirely true- on foot or by horse. Nowhere in the Constitution or assorted Amendments does it suggest that operation of a motor vehicle is a right reserved for the people… and I have yet to see or hear of a court that has suggested that the right to drive unlicensed comes along with the Ninth Amendment. In any case, outside of Montana and Wyoming (and possibly the Dakotas), there are invariably laws which preclude an unlicensed driver from operating anything larger than a bicycle. On to my real point… I have a better Catch-22, courtesy of my roommate… Here in Florida, we have what are called ‘Bright Futures Scholarships’, which are basically guaranteed to anyone who graduates high school (in other words anyone who shows up more than half the time over a four year period)… easy to get, hard to keep… the reason they’re so easy to get is because everyone loses them during the first year of college, once they discover beer. My roommate did just that, and without the scholarship he can’t afford to pay his tuition. To get the scholarship back, he needed to improve his grades… but he wasn’t getting any grades, because, of course, he couldn’t pay for school anymore. He tried to get student loans… however, by the time he found out he’d lost his scholarship it was too late to apply for that year. So, he took the term off, and tried to apply for a loan when next term rolled around. He was turned down, because… he hadn’t completed enough school the previous term. In the end he found a rich girlfriend and she and lent him a big heap of cash, but an uglier man would have been screwed… ---
**Author:** ![calliarcale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/48db29/32.png) [@calliarcale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calliarcale)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-doozie-of-a-catch-22/172095/36 "2003-05-29T13:35:34Z")
Actually, there are exceptions where people without licenses can operate motorized vehicles larger than bicycles. Most (possibly all) states do not regulate operation of farm equipment. That’s why you may have heard a story recently about a very elderly man who no longer had a driver’s license using his riding lawnmower to drive cross-country to visit his brother. Riding lawnmowers are considered tractors, and tractor operation isn’t usually regulated very much. It’s also common practise to allow underage people to drive regular vehicles (pickup trucks, cars, etc) on private property – and again, the exception to the law is mostly thinking about farming. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-doozie-of-a-catch-22/172095/37 "2003-05-29T15:27:36Z")
> [@](#): > > In any case, outside of Montana and Wyoming (and possibly the Dakotas), there are invariably laws which preclude an unlicensed driver from operating anything larger than a bicycle. I’m pretty sure that we have those laws here, too. Certainly, we have a DMV, and the paper-shufflers at the University were very surprised to find that I didn’t have a license (nor a car). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-doozie-of-a-catch-22/172095.md?page=1)