# One Eyed Kings are Wild -- faith in God, faith in humanity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2001, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209 "2001-01-15T21:02:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209/1 "2001-01-15T21:02:20Z")
“In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king – but those with two eyes can see clearly” – Margurite Porete > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > One thing that truly concerns me is what exactly **jmullaney** is suggesting as doctrine. If I’m reading you correctly, Joel, it appears to me that you take the view that one passage calls for the doing of “greater things than these” and to “be perfect as My Father in Heaven is perfect” by all Christians, that you read these literally, and therefore have concluded that salvation is impossible, and somehow feel it your place to preach that Bad News to all who will listen (and many who won’t). No. My understanding of what is required for salvation comes from Jesus’s lips: 1. No one can be saved unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 2. No one can recieve the Spirit unless they love Jesus, which entails keeping his commandments. Vice versa, Jesus says, anyone who does not keep his commandments does not love him, and anyone who keeps his commandments loves him by definition. I furthermore believe in Jesus’s proscribed way of identifying those who have faith in him: “Anyone who has faith in me shall do works.” And as Paul says in Romans: “You will be judged by your works.” Many are those who rest their understanding on another phrase from Paul’s letter to those Roman Christians: “By grace, you are saved by faith.” They ignore other things he says there as well, such as: “You were at one time slaves to wrong things. But I praise God that you obeyed what your teachers taught you. And you obeyed because you wanted to obey.” Ignoring, as such, that there are teachings which these Romans were obeying, presumably Jesus’s teachings, while they themselves feel no need to obey any teachings of Jesus themselves. They talk a good talk about “love” without admitting Jesus’s teachings explain the meaning of the word, nor do they care that by not keeping Jesus’s commandments they are not loving Jesus, a person who should be highest on their list. Keeping his teachings is not impossible. In fact, Jesus’s yoke is an easy yoke though people like to pretend otherwise. Nor do I believe, as **Opus1** tried to argue, that the Gospel is confusing as to what his teachings are. Obviously, Jesus was a man, and he kept his own teachings. > [@](#): > > I would greatly appreciate your reading, clarifying and correcting my inferences from your posts as stated [in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=53802&pagenumber=2)]. I think I disagree with you radically, but I’d at least like to argue with you on a shared set of assumptions, not incongruously based on misinterpreting what you have to say. I didn’t lose my faith in God until I lost my faith in humanity. There are enough people who have access to the Gospel’s and do not keep Jesus’s teachings that I doubt I can be of any service to anyone. I have few misgivings about using my gifts to persue worldly gain while leaving the blind masses to their own fate. I thought at first they were fools. Then I thought they were weak and lazy. But now I know they are blind – blind drunk off some potion I don’t understand. If any prophet ever found me and asked me to repent, I would. But I lack the will to go it alone. In the meantime, I’ll lend my “talent at interest” to who ever will listen. It is good news. If they listen, so much they better for them. And if they come back for me once they have reached the land of freedom, then perhaps I’ll be saved after all. So, **Polycarp** – what do you want to argue about? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209/2 "2001-01-15T21:16:55Z")
Er, not really wanting to get involved in this but unable to help myself. It sounds like you’re saying, “Well, I’ve lost _my_ faith, but I’m gonna go ahead and preach the Gospel to anyone who cares to listen.” Is that it? > [@](#): > > Phil 1:15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. > Phil 1:16 The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. > Phil 1:17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. > Phil 1:18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209/3 "2001-01-15T21:53:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > Is that it? Exactly. Nothing wrong with defending the gospel and for the sake of the gospel, considering I’m not selfishly trying to make a buck off the deal like so many others out there! And after all, those few with faith in Jesus are probably not here to defend themselves, or if they are they sure do keep quiet. Luke 18: [quote] 2 [Jesus] said, “In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor regarded man; 3 and there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, ‘Vindicate me against my adversary.’ 4 For a while he refused; but afterward he said to himself, ‘Though I neither fear God nor regard man, 5 yet because this widow bothers me, I will vindicate her, or she will wear me out by her continual coming.’” 6 And the Lord said, “Hear what the unrighteous judge says. 7 And will not God vindicate his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? 8 I tell you, he will vindicate them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?” [quote] ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209/4 "2001-01-15T22:00:32Z")
Just to make sure I understood you, Joel . . . you lost faith in humanity because so many people have access to the Gospels and still do not follow Christ? ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209/5 "2001-01-15T22:23:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* And after all, those few with faith in Jesus are probably not here to defend themselves, or if they are they sure do keep quiet. > \*\* I would likely be amoung the last who would say I am a good or perfect Christian- but I CERTAINLY do NOT “keep quiet”. Speak for yourself, please. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209/6 "2001-01-15T22:23:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > you lost faith in humanity because so many people have access to the Gospels and still do not follow Christ? That, in and of itself, would not bother me. I am bothered by the lying and the hypocrisy or the sheer majority of those who claim to believe in Jesus but, quite obviously, do not. It is horrible. Horrible, horrible, horrible. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209/7 "2001-01-15T22:27:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > \*\*Speak for yourself, please. \*\* If you have faith in Jesus, as you claim, do you keep his teachings? And if so, which ones? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209/8 "2001-01-15T22:36:06Z")
Y’know, Joel, I may be looking at the world through rose-colored glasses, but I see humaneness in humanity, and a desire to be all that they can be, a willingness to do good from unselfish motives – maybe not explicitly Christian ones, because we have done one horrible job of depicting His will – but humanitarian, humanistic ones. And some of the outspoken atheists I know are among the ones doing just that. YMMV, but I see them as the people of whom Jesus was speaking in the parable of the two sons: > [@](#): > > Matthew 21:28-32 > 28 "Now, what do you think? There was once a man who had two sons. He went to the older one and said, "Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ 29 "I don’t want to,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. 30 Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. “Yes, sir,’ he answered, but he did not go. 31 Which one of the two did what his father wanted?” “The older one,” they answered. ¶ So Jesus said to them, "I tell you: the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the Kingdom of God ahead of you. 32 For John the Baptist came to you showing you the right path to take, and you would not believe him; but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. Even when you saw this, you did not later change your minds and believe him. I’m much happier with what you’re saying here than the misunderstanding I had of where you were coming from, and have no particular point to argue. Although if you’re talking one-eyed kings in a religious context, somebody is gonna bring up Odin. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209/9 "2001-01-15T22:49:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > I see them as the people of whom Jesus was speaking in the parable of the two sons So, if you agree that God’s will is for people to keep Jesus’s teachings, I do not know of many atheists who have “repented and taken the right path.” Nor would I expect them to, to be honest. I don’t want to sidetrack this into another debate regarding secular morality. But, still, show me these atheists you know who are keeping Jesus’s teachings. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209/10 "2001-01-15T23:38:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > > \*\*Speak for yourself, please. \*\* > > If you have faith in Jesus, as you claim, do you keep his teachings? And if so, which ones? \*\* I accept Him as my Savior- that is all that is truly nessesary. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209/11 "2001-01-16T16:27:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > I accept Him as my Savior- that is all that is truly nessesary. :rolleyes: So, although you are not born of Spirit, you think you can still be saved? Even though Jesus said otherwise? Or do you think Jesus was lying when he said you had to keep his commandments to recieve the Spirit? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209/12 "2001-01-16T16:29:58Z")
> [@](#): > > I accept Him as my Savior- that is all that is truly nessesary. That is quite possibly the most selfish religious view I have ever heard of. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209/13 "2001-01-16T17:00:21Z")
Just wanna point out to **Daniel~** that as the King James version has it, “faith without works is dead”. It’s not enough just to believe–you gotta get off your duff and prove it. In the NIV, it’s “faith…not accompanied by action, is dead.”: > [@](#): > > James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? > James 2:15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. > James 2:16 If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? > James 2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. > James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. > James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder. > James 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ? > James 2:21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? > James 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. > James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. > James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. > James 2:25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? > James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209/14 "2001-01-16T18:28:34Z")
> [@](#): > > But, still, show me these atheists you know who are keeping Jesus’s teachings. _All_ of Christ’s teachings? You know better than that, Joel. I’ve never met a Christian like that. But I can think of plenty of atheists who believe in peace, turning the other cheek, and the golden rule. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209/15 "2001-01-16T19:15:09Z")
I’m an atheist. From my point of view, I would say I don’t keep Jesus’s teachings because (a) how are we supposed to know what he taught? and (b) it’s not hard to improve on the teachings traditionally attributed to him. As regards (a), I personally find it odd that anyone thinks they have a reasonably good idea what, if anything, JC actually said or believed. It’s very hard to achieve consensus regarding what happened in Dallas on Nov 22 1963, despite numerous witnesses (some still living), colour film, audio recordings, all the facilities of the mass media and surely the most investigated set of facts in history. So it seems to me the words used by some guy in and around Judea 2000 years ago, none of which were recorded or preserved at the time, none of which were written up until some 60-70 years after his alleged death, and none of which come to us except after numerous translations, re-translations and assorted conflicting interpretations by different churches, must be something of a moot point at best. As regards (b), I could list any number of improvements, as I see them. For one thing, I don’t need the promise of a reward in ‘heaven’, or the threat of punishment in ‘hell’, to construct a personal and social set of ethics within which I can exercise my choice to do good. For another, if disturbed people come to me for help, I wouldn’t take their problems out on nearby swine. For another, I could find ways to protest about money-lenders that didn’t involve violence, damage to other people’s property, losing my rag and generally acting like a delinquent teenager with too much testosterone. Oh, and I keep my promises. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209/16 "2001-01-16T19:16:42Z")
> [@](#): > > :\*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > I accept Him as my Savior- that is all that is truly necessary. > > _Originally posed by jmullaney_ > So, although you are not born of Spirit, you think you can still be saved? Even though Jesus said otherwise? Or do you think Jesus was lying when he said you had to keep his commandments to recieve the Spirit? Wow, what a line of reasoning from insufficient grounds! On what basis do you hold that Daniel is “not born of Spirit”? Or that he does not keep Jesus’ commandments? He made a simple assertion of the essentials of faith. And said that was “all that is truly necessary.” He did not delimit his faith and his doings to that, but tried to draw a minimum. If you were my boss, and a nervous sort, and called to determine if deadlines were being met, and I told you that I had mailed out your estimated tax statement yesterday, the only thing with an immediate deadline, you would not therefore immediately assume that was the only thing I had done, but rather that I had met the sole task with a deadline which had passed and was working on material with a later deadline. Daniel asserted that was the one thing necessary. He is more or less supported by Paul in this. To understand Jesus’ words as being contrary to it would require a detailed analysis of faith vs. works and a series of presumptions as to what accepting Jesus as savior means to Daniel that might not be borne out by his own attitudes. It is this sort of nitpickery that turns people off to Christianity. If you offer me a million dollars to be your personal servant, I must accept in order to earn the million. At that point a contract has been undertaken, a covenant reached. It is to be presumed that I will then fulfill the duties expected of your personal servant, in keeping with the contract. And that you will equip me with that which I need to fulfill the role adequately (a letter of agency, perhaps; by this I draw the parallel to the giving of the Spirit). Daniel said he had accepted the contract. He did not say either party was remiss in fulfilling it. That was your assumption. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209/17 "2001-01-16T19:19:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > _All_ of Christ’s teachings? You know better than that, Joel. I’ve never met a Christian like that. What do you mean? That you don’t get out much? > [@](#): > > But I can think of plenty of atheists who believe in peace, turning the other cheek, and the golden rule. I don’t think you can point to any that _really_ believe in loving their enemies or doing unto others as other do unto them. A handful of them might claim to without warping the meanings of these phrases, but even then their actions do not actually support their views. But, I’m no good at understanding the convolutions of secular morality. I mean no offense – I just wonder sometimes if people can see the reality of the consequences of their actions. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209/18 "2001-01-16T19:39:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > On what basis do you hold that Daniel is “not born of Spirit”? Or that he does not keep Jesus’ commandments? I didn’t make any such assertion, I merely asked a question. If I am suspicious, it is only because he seemed to avoid answering my first question which was rather plain and direct. > [@](#): > > To understand Jesus’ words as being contrary to it would require a detailed analysis of faith vs. works and a series of presumptions as to what accepting Jesus as savior means to Daniel that might not be borne out by his own attitudes. Well, Jesus did say that not everyone who called him their Lord and Savior would in fact be saved. So, who exactly do you think those people are? Or do you think Jesus was wrong here as well? > [@](#): > > It is this sort of nitpickery that turns people off to Christianity. What turns me off more than anything is hypocrisy. > [@](#): > > And that you will equip me with that which I need to fulfill the role adequately Which of Jesus’s commandments do you believe is not possible to keep without having the Spirit first? Not that such a theory would negate the plain language of Jesus: > [@](#): > > Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it. If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever: the Spirit of Truth > [@](#): > > Daniel said he had accepted the contract. Then he should be able to plainly say which commandments he keeps without being evasive. A son of the light shouldn’t be afraid to come into the light, right? ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209/19 "2001-01-16T20:37:01Z")
jmullany: there is only One who is qualified to judge my faith- and you are not Him. DDG- I do appreciate the wisdom of JC’s brother, James- but he is not the Word. John5:24 “Verily, Verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come unto condemnation…” John12:47 “…I came not to judge the world, but to save the world” ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2001, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209/20 "2001-01-16T22:33:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > jmullany: there is only One who is qualified to judge my faith- and you are not Him. “Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.” > [@](#): > > I do appreciate the wisdom of JC’s brother, James- but he is not the Word. > > John5:24 “Verily, Verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come unto condemnation…” Ahem! That is a tad out of context. John 5: > [@](#): > > He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. And continues: > [@](#): > > And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen; and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent. You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. I do not receive glory from men. But I know that you have not the love of God within you. Yet surely, these people heard Jesus’s word and believed in God, yet why do they not have life? > [@](#): > > John12:47 “…I came not to judge the world, but to save the world” Egads! Could you at least pretend not to take this out of context by quoting a complete sentence? John 12:44-50 > [@](#): > > Jesus called out, `Anyone who believes in me does not believe just in me, but in the one who sent me. Anyone who sees me sees the one who sent me. I am a light and have come into the world. Anyone who believes in me will not be in the dark. If anyone hears what I say and does not believe it, I do not judge him. I did not come to judge the world. I came to save the world. The one who will not believe in me and will not listen to what I say will be judged anyway. The same things that I have said will judge him on the last day. I have not said this from my own mind, but my Father who sent me told me what to say. He told me what to tell you. I know that what he told me to say has power to give life for ever. So I say everything my Father has told me to say. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-eyed-kings-are-wild-faith-in-god-faith-in-humanity/50209.md?page=2)