# One Hand **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [December 6, 2008, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941 "2008-12-06T02:54:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gnodab](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecd19e/32.png) [@Gnodab](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gnodab)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941/1 "2008-12-06T02:54:55Z")
Cecil, As someone who has been practicing Zen for going on three and a half years now, I would like to ask if you could take down the answer part for the one hand clapping. It is not fair to take away the chance a person has of answering a koan by giving an answer that is understood intellectually. On top of that, I have spent nearly a year on that koan specifically, and the answer given is not accurate. Thanks. Chris ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941/2 "2008-12-06T03:12:02Z")
If someone wants to work it out for themself, they don’t have to read “Cecil’s” answer. ---
**Author:** ![Gnodab](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecd19e/32.png) [@Gnodab](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gnodab)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941/3 "2008-12-06T03:14:28Z")
irrelevant. This is why within Zen schools (well, the one’s that practice Koans anyways), koans are only spoken between student and teacher. Even if a correct answer was given (which it is not), it would not be correct for the reader, as they have only understood intellectually why it is the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941/4 "2008-12-06T03:52:54Z")
> [@Gnodab](#): > > Even if a correct answer was given (which it is not) cite, please, as to why this is the incorrect answer? ---
**Author:** ![Gnodab](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecd19e/32.png) [@Gnodab](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gnodab)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941/5 "2008-12-06T04:07:19Z")
I’ve studied for roughly two and a half years with Zen Master Sunim Pohwa of the hwagyesa order in Korea. Roughly the last year I have been working on this koan, which I finally answered about a month ago. So it is by my cite that it should be taken down, and that it is incorrect. I can’t give the correct answer, but I can say that attaching to hands is chasing mudballs. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941/6 "2008-12-06T04:18:03Z")
“My post is my cite” has long been rejected on these boards as a valid response. If you disagree with the Perfect Master, can you give us the reasoning which leads you to this conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941/7 "2008-12-06T05:02:28Z")
[The column in question](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/43/what-is-the-sound-of-one-hand-clapping). And no offense, **Gnodab** , but our mission here is fighting ignorance. Around here, if someone is seeking enlightenment, we give it to them, as Cecil in this column enlightened us on the nature of koans. That is not enlightenment which cannot enlighten, and he who cannot enlighten does not have enlightenment. ---
**Author:** ![Gregor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Gregor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gregor)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941/8 "2008-12-06T10:45:32Z")
I know the sound of one hand clapping - for I’ve produced it. Big deal, it’s nothing special. Personally, what’s the point? If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is anywhere near, does it make a sound? Of course it does, unless you’re fool enough to believe sound only exists once it’s heard. Some do, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![SeanArenas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeanArenas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeanArenas)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941/9 "2008-12-06T19:57:39Z")
[http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sound[3]](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sound%5B3%5D) 1. a: a particular auditory impression b: the sensation\*\* perceived by the sense of hearing\*\* c: mechanical radiant energy that is transmitted by longitudinal pressure waves in a material medium and **is the objective cause of hearing** ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941/10 "2008-12-06T21:38:14Z")
> [@Gnodab](#): > > I’ve studied for roughly two and a half years with Zen Master Sunim Pohwa of the hwagyesa order in Korea. Roughly the last year I have been working on this koan, which I finally answered about a month ago. So it is by my cite that it should be taken down, and that it is incorrect. > I can’t give the correct answer, but I can say that attaching to hands is chasing mudballs. Isn’t humility supposed to be part of Zen? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2008, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941/11 "2008-12-06T22:02:30Z")
> [@Gnodab](#): > > I’ve studied for roughly two and a half years with Zen Master Sunim Pohwa of the hwagyesa order in Korea. Huh. Really? And yet in all that time you never learned that 1) his name is Pohwa Sunim, not Sunim Pohwa and 2) that Hwa Gye Sa is three words, not one? Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941/12 "2008-12-07T02:40:58Z")
To know that you do not know is the best. To pretend to know when you do not know is a disease. -Lao Tzu ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941/13 "2008-12-07T06:37:08Z")
The sound of one hand clapping. It’s the same as the other hand, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2008, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941/14 "2008-12-07T13:11:31Z")
I know just enough to know that I know very little. Is the answer 42? ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941/15 "2008-12-09T22:26:45Z")
[QUOTE=Gnodab] On top of that, I have spent nearly a year on that koan specifically, and the answer given is not accurate. [/QUOTE] Cecil provided an answer, and he provided the source for his answer. If you disagree with his answer, you are welcome to share your reasoning. If you disagree but are unwilling to share your reasoning, then you have failed to prove his answer is incorrect. If your answer is that reasoning cannot answer the koan, it is an experiential thing rather than a reasoning thing, then the best you can say is that Hau Hoo had a different experiential answer than you. Who is right and who is wrong is the wrong kind of evaluation. ---
**Author:** ![Gnodab](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecd19e/32.png) [@Gnodab](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gnodab)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941/16 "2008-12-13T06:42:41Z")
Sorry, I have been unable to log back in for a response until tonight. A) "Huh. Really? And yet in all that time you never learned that 1) his name is Pohwa Sunim, not Sunim Pohwa and 2) that Hwa Gye Sa is three words, not one? Interesting. " Interesting indeed. I know that We called him Sunim. It took roughly 5 months of study before I found out that “sunim” was korean for “monk” I was actually kind of p.o.ed by the fact, as I thought “sunim” was his actual name (I look at some mail addressed to him, and it was addressed to his _real_ name, not his monk name). Whether it’s sunim pohwa or phowa sunim, I don’t really care. I always called him by Sunim, and so that was his first name to me. Second, I don’t live in korea, nor speak korean, so Hwa Gye Sa or Hwagyesa, doesn’t really matter. B)Cecil provided an answer, and he provided the source for his answer. If you disagree with his answer, you are welcome to share your reasoning. If you disagree but are unwilling to share your reasoning, then you have failed to prove his answer is incorrect. If your answer is that reasoning cannot answer the koan, it is an experiential thing rather than a reasoning thing, then the best you can say is that Hau Hoo had a different experiential answer than you. Who is right and who is wrong is the wrong kind of evaluation. Saying experience or not experience is not really the point. There are an infinite amount of answers to a koan, just like there are an infinite positions to point to the moon. But there is only one moon. And the answer given was not pointing to the moon, but to some distant star. C) "Isn’t humility supposed to be part of Zen? " No, although it often comes as a by-product of practicing koans/meditation. D) And no offense, Gnodab, but our mission here is fighting ignorance. Around here, if someone is seeking enlightenment, we give it to them, as Cecil in this column enlightened us on the nature of koans. That is not enlightenment which cannot enlighten, and he who cannot enlighten does not have enlightenment. You already have an enlightened mind. I don’t follow the rest of what you said. Again, I just would like to have the answer part taken out of the post. Keep the rest of it up for all I care. I could have my teacher tell you the same thing. 42? no…it’s 43. Duh! (yes, I get the reference) ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941/17 "2008-12-13T13:14:54Z")
Once again, Gnodab: if you disagree with the answer given (or rather described) in Cecil’s column, you need to provide a counter-argument. Note that Cecil was using an answer from the book _The Sound of One Hand: 281 Zen Koans With Answers_ by Hau Hoo, so perhaps your disagreement is really with Hau. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941/18 "2008-12-13T14:54:34Z")
If the actual koan is ‘In clapping both hands, a sound is heard. What is the sound of one hand?’, then I maintain my answer is correct. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941/19 "2008-12-14T03:19:29Z")
> [@Gnodab](#): > > A) "Huh. Really? And yet in all that time you never learned that 1) his name is Pohwa Sunim, not Sunim Pohwa and 2) that Hwa Gye Sa is three words, not one? > > Interesting. " > Interesting indeed. I know that We called him Sunim. It took roughly 5 months of study before I found out that “sunim” was korean for “monk” I was actually kind of p.o.ed by the fact, as I thought “sunim” was his actual name (I look at some mail addressed to him, and it was addressed to his _real_ name, not his monk name). Whether it’s sunim pohwa or phowa sunim, I don’t really care. I always called him by Sunim, and so that was his first name to me. Second, I don’t live in korea, nor speak korean, so Hwa Gye Sa or Hwagyesa, doesn’t really matter. Sure, it matters- it goes to credibility, as they say on the legal procedurals. Okey dokey, friend. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Gnodab](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecd19e/32.png) [@Gnodab](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gnodab)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941/20 "2008-12-15T06:50:01Z")
again I will reply in kind. A)Sure, it matters- it goes to credibility, as they say on the legal procedurals. Okey dokey, friend. \*I do know his _actual_ name. And where he lived while in america (as I lived there for a year with him). B) You want an actual answer? let me confer with my teacher and see if I can give it, if I can I will post it here. Otherwise I still request that the answer given be taken down. And if my beef is with the guy who wrote the book, fine. I still would like the answer taken down. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-hand/475941.md?page=2)