# One more way the GOP supports the troops **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 23, 2006, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313 "2006-01-23T22:19:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313/21 "2006-01-24T13:16:02Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > No wonder corruption is rampant within the Republican party. So few of their followers can nut up and call them on their misdeeds, even when it involves fucking over members of the military. “Party of personal responsibility” my brown eye! Pathetic. Not at all. I just want to stress that whatever fault there is here doesn’t seem to me to be based solely in one party. Halliburton wasn’t a political football when they got all of those base contracts in the 1990’s, were they? That was a very noncontroversial process at the time, even though it was done through a process that had the contracts in place before the contingency, and thus prevented other companies from bidding when the need arose, and orders began to be placed. The same thing happened in this war, yet now it is a political issue because of the political affiliations of some of the players involved. Defense contractors typically cultivate close ties with the government, and with members of both political parties. That is reality, and carping that the Republicans are whores in this regard is fine, I suppose, but the Democrats are on their knees as well, and have been for just as long. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313/22 "2006-01-24T13:22:43Z")
[Cite for my B&R assertion above:](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1569483) > [@](#): > > After Johnson took over the Oval Office, Brown & Root won contracts for huge construction projects for the federal government. By the mid-1960s, newspaper columnists and the Republican minority in Congress began to suggest that the company’s good luck was tied to its sizable contributions to Johnson’s political campaign. > > More questions were raised when a consortium of which Brown & Root was a part won a $380 million contract to build airports, bases, hospitals and other facilities for the U.S. Navy in South Vietnam. By 1967, the General Accounting Office had faulted the “Vietnam builders” – as they were known – for massive accounting lapses and allowing thefts of materials. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313/23 "2006-01-24T13:39:47Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > KBR’s predecessor, Brown and Root, got a lot of Vietnam War era contracts, many within Vietnam. And it is very interesting to note the close relationship the company and its executives had with one Lyndon Johnson, in an era with much looser ethics laws. Not that Johnson much bothered with _them_. Gee, that would be a great GOP campaign slogan; “We have the ethics of Lyndon Johnson.” Way to raise the bar there, **Moto**. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313/24 "2006-01-24T14:04:40Z")
I was just answering **RTFirefly’s** assertion that the Democrats hadn’t done anything similar in recent decades. That’s clearly not true, and what’s more, in at least this case, they whored themselves out to the same john. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313/25 "2006-01-24T14:32:51Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Gee, that would be a great GOP campaign slogan; “We have the ethics of Lyndon Johnson.” Way to raise the bar there, **Moto**. I thought the “Clinton did it too” argument was bad enough! Next we’re going to be hearing charges of misbehavior by Woodrow Wilson. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313/26 "2006-01-24T14:49:27Z")
“recent decades” ??? Come on, nobody claims that LBJ was the most scrupulously honest man to sit in the Oval Office. But if you’re going to bring that stale nugget up as an crutch for Bush to lean on, maybe the Democrats should be constantly bring up Lincoln’s suspension of habeus corpus. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313/27 "2006-01-24T15:01:23Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > “recent decades” ??? I wasn’t the one who brought that one up. Again, I was just answering a question. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313/28 "2006-01-24T15:12:22Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Couple things. > > First of all, if KBR was nothing but an eeeevviiilll Republican company, then the last administration would have been idiots had they, say, hired them to build 33 different camps in the former Yugoslavia and provide them with hotel services that included, yes, water purification. > > I guess it goes without saying they did that very thing. > > [Link.](http://www.dcma.mil/communicator/archives/spring%20summer%202004/in_the_news.htm) > > If Halliburton screwed up, they ought to be penalized in some way, obviously. But forgive my skepticism in thinking the Democrats have the interests of the Republic in mind when they bitch about these problems. They see a fat target of opportunity, that’s all they see. > > When they actually had to care for troops in the field, they signed contracts with the same crowd. Ah yes, the 'ol “but _they_ did it too” response. So I’ll assume you have outrage for both parties then right? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313/29 "2006-01-24T15:35:39Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Gee, hmm, gosh, you’re right. I guess they didn’t block investigations, as far as I can see. Of course, they also didn’t go poking around if doing so would embarass a president from their party. > > KBR’s predecessor, Brown and Root, got a lot of Vietnam War era contracts, many within Vietnam. And it is very interesting to note the close relationship the company and its executives had with one Lyndon Johnson, in an era with much looser ethics laws. Not that Johnson much bothered with _them_. > > Check it out sonetime. I’m sure you’ll be enlightened. So in other words, it’s perfectly OK for the contractor-corporation buddy of a Republican administration to put human waste into our troops’ drinking water, because a Democratic President liked them too? Amazing ethics you have there. Is this an example of the “values” that the Republicans are restoring? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313/30 "2006-01-24T16:03:24Z")
Didn’t ever say it was okay, ever. I merely note that military contracts go to military contractors, and those companies can sometimes make mistakes. And even when they don’t, they at all times shmooze in very close to the government and to both parties. Anyone who believes otherwise hasn’t been following things very closely. John C. Stennis was a well respected southern Democrat, and an absolute hawk when it came to defense spending. His deference to the Navy and its programs has been well noted through the years, so much so that he has been called the father of America’s modern Navy. There is a Nimitz-class carrier named after him now. Now, most of this was a perfectly legitimate effort on behalf of national security. But the fact that a major shipyard that builds warships is located in Mississippi, the state Stennis represented in the Senate for decades, has to figure into this equation as well. These days, the Ingalls Shipyard is represented strongly by Trent Lott. He manages to steer lots of business their way. Not hard to do, as there aren’t many shipyards left that can do that sort of work. This connection is pretty tight on both sides, and has been for decades. And sure, I can find lots of times when it has produced problems, and probably it is not an ideal system for anyone. However, both Republicans and Democrats had a part to play in constructing this sort of closeness, and it is futile to pin this one one party only. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313/31 "2006-01-24T16:09:15Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > This connection is pretty tight on both sides, and has been for decades. And sure, I can find lots of times when it has produced problems, and probably it is not an ideal system for anyone. However, both Republicans and Democrats had a part to play in constructing this sort of closeness, and it is futile to pin this one one party only. Quite possibly. However, here we are dealing with one example. In this example, Republicans are being shown to be pretty damn hypocritical. Do you agree with this? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313/32 "2006-01-24T16:09:56Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > So in other words, it’s perfectly OK for the contractor-corporation buddy of a Republican administration to \*\*put human waste \*\* into our troops’ drinking water, because a Democratic President liked them too? Bolding mine. Don’t you think that’s a bit inaccurate and inflamatory? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313/33 "2006-01-24T16:22:06Z")
**Moto** , you are trying to respond to an allegation of wrongdoing by a contractor who has been intimately linked to the present administration, has been noted many times for a wide variety of dubious and unethical practices, and in this present case is found to knowingly have provided contaminated water to service personnel and civilians as potable over a lengthy period of time without informing anyone of the problem. Your response is that Democrats have had relationships with contractors in the past too, including Johnson. Do you see how the two issues are hardly similar? Do you have any indication that Johnson or Stennis continued to provide contracts and to work closely with a contractor who had demonstrated repeated failures to provide services in an ethical or reliable manner? That might be slightly more relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313/34 "2006-01-24T16:24:29Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Do you agree with this? Don’t know. If the DoD takes care of this situation through a contract mechanism, then the only reason to hold a hearing would be to stir up shit, literally. The article says that military audits have criticized Halliburton’s performance on these contracts, so we will see what happens in the future. Part of the problem is a distinct lack of competition for many of these jobs, to be honest. Not many companies are willing to do what KB&R has been doing for decades - building military bases in not very nice places. This is the fourth war the company has done this in, and this has had its successful and its not so successful moments, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313/35 "2006-01-24T16:34:27Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Do you see how the two issues are hardly similar? Do you have any indication that Johnson or Stennis continued to provide contracts and to work closely with a contractor who had demonstrated repeated failures to provide services in an ethical or reliable manner? That might be slightly more relevant. I did cite above that the Vietnam-era Brown & Root was cited for massive accounting lapses and materials theft. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313/36 "2006-01-24T16:37:08Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Bolding mine. > > Don’t you think that’s a bit inaccurate and inflamatory? Completely agreed. I started to rephrase that to “allow human waste to enter” and was distracted by e-mail, submitted with what I thought I’d corrected. Sorry! ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313/37 "2006-01-24T16:44:14Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Gee, hmm, gosh, you’re right. I guess they didn’t block investigations, as far as I can see. Of course, they also didn’t go poking around if doing so would embarass a president from their party. > > KBR’s predecessor, Brown and Root, got a lot of Vietnam War era contracts, many within Vietnam. And it is very interesting to note the close relationship the company and its executives had with one Lyndon Johnson, in an era with much looser ethics laws. Not that Johnson much bothered with _them_. > > Check it out sonetime. I’m sure you’ll be enlightened. **Moto** , do you think you could go, say, a week of posting without whipping out a “Democrats did it too”? A day? Ten consecutive posts? You’re like **Reeder** , you know. Pathetic. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313/38 "2006-01-24T17:04:31Z")
Look, you all are missing the point here. What I am saying is that Kellogg, Brown & Root and Halliburton have both been around for a mighty long time. Corporations are like that - they are the closest things we’ll ever see to eternal life. The most successful of them outlast administrations, and indeed the lifetimes of politicians themselves. They last longer than governments in many countries, and longer than some countries have even been around. This company has provided services to the government going right back to WWII. Brown and Root got a dam building contract from the feds in 1937, during the Roosevelt administration. And in these decades, far longer than I’ve been around, the company has cultivated close ties with Republicans and Democrats alike. Again, the Clinton administration turned to KB&R to build bases in the former Yugoslavia. The company helped build the Johnson Space Center. And sure, they’ve done plenty of work under Republican administrations as well. Government contractors tend to work for the government. Making the company itself a partisan issue seems silly, considering the close ties they’ve had with the Clinton administration, and other Democratic administrations. The company did not just dry up, or get no government contracts, when Clinton or Carter were in office, you know. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313/39 "2006-01-24T17:10:28Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Look, you all are missing the point here. What I am saying is that Kellogg, Brown & Root and Halliburton have both been around for a mighty long time. Corporations are like that - they are the closest things we’ll ever see to eternal life. > > The most successful of them outlast administrations, and indeed the lifetimes of politicians themselves. They last longer than governments in many countries, and longer than some countries have even been around. > > This company has provided services to the government going right back to WWII. Brown and Root got a dam building contract from the feds in 1937, during the Roosevelt administration. And in these decades, far longer than I’ve been around, the company has cultivated close ties with Republicans and Democrats alike. > > Again, the Clinton administration turned to KB&R to build bases in the former Yugoslavia. The company helped build the Johnson Space Center. And sure, they’ve done plenty of work under Republican administrations as well. Government contractors tend to work for the government. > > Making the company itself a partisan issue seems silly, considering the close ties they’ve had with the Clinton administration, and other Democratic administrations. The company did not just dry up, or get no government contracts, when Clinton or Carter were in office, you know. Well this is a discussion for another day. TODAYS discussion is about a PARTICULAR incident that we’re expressing outrage towards. You want to talk about past incidents and improprieties, open a thread. Would admitting that KBR fucked up cause you physical pain or something? I’ve never seen someone so averse to admitting possible wrong doing. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313/40 "2006-01-24T17:20:06Z")
I get your point, Mr. Moto, but all I’m saying is that it’s outrageous that Halliburton can misuse its contracts with impunity because it knows the White House is in its back pocket. If the Bush administration would take prompt action to force Halliburton to correct the situation, then I’d have less of a problem with Halliburton. But we all know that they are averse to rocking their favorite boat. None of us are amazed that Democratic administrations have their favorite firms too. War profiteering has been around for centuries. But nothing done under Democratic rule compares to Halliburton’s wretched excess and as far as I know, vice president Humphrey was not the former CEO of any of the profiteers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-more-way-the-gop-supports-the-troops/341313.md?page=3)