# One night in August, 1944 - "Zigeunernacht" **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 2, 2003, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528 "2003-08-02T11:50:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528/1 "2003-08-02T11:50:30Z")
\*Oh, there is starvation in Auschwitz, We have nothing at all to eat, Mother, not even a piece of bread, Those starving us are bad karma. Oh, if I only had a pitchfork I would kill the tormentors If I only had a pitchfork. I would kill the people starving us.\* Oshwitsate - Ruzena Danielova There used to be a Romani camp at Auschwitz. At one point it held up to 16,000 people but epidemics, starvation and the Nazi’s brutal treatment got that number down. For various reasons the Nazis decided the camp and its inhabitants should be destroyed. In May, 1944 this plan swung into action and the SS moved in. But, as the SS surrounded the camp, they were met by brave and desperate resistance from Roma and Sinti who had armed themselves with whatever came to hand. The SS retreated, the destruction was postponed. Over the course of the next few months, those Roma and Sinti who were fit enough for work were moved to other camps. The night of August 2nd-3rd, 1944 was _Zigeunernacht_ - “Gypsy night” - and the remaining Roma and Sinti inhabitants of the camp were rounded up and sent to the gas chambers. Dr Josef Mengele himself helped supervise arrangements for the transportation, he hunted for any children who were hiding and even took a group of them to the chambers in his own car. There was - once again - brave resistance though, as one Polish survivor says; > [@](#): > > One night the men’s camp was waken up by thousands of people shouting. As we stepped out of the barrack we saw what was going on. The Gypsies’ camp was illuminated by floodlights, and the Gypsy men, women and children were lined up in groups of five by the SS, to be taken to the crematoriums. The poor creatures were resisting as hard as they could, shouting so loud that it could be heard all over Birkenau. The fights lasted all night, but by the morning the Gypsy camp was empty. About 3,000 men, women and children were sent to the gas chambers and cremated in a single night. The Romani camp was gone and nothing was left of the inhabitants but ashes. Travel well, my friends - my brothers and my sisters. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528/2 "2003-08-02T11:58:57Z")
I can’t believe you put this in MPSIMS. I guess GD is no good, because really, what is there to debate? The Pit, maybe? In all seriousness, this stuff always blows my mind. It’s another reason why I get pissed that my home state of Illinois, which has a Holocaust Remembrance Month in the public schools with all sorts of special classroom prgramming (and my school usually brought in a survivor or two to talk about their experiences), basically just mentions the non-Jews who were murdered in passing. “Oh yeah, those guys. Well, that sucked, too.” \*\*Kal, \*\* have you ever thought of working with your local school system to get this stuff included in the curriculum? ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528/3 "2003-08-02T12:36:51Z")
My feelings about the whole attitude of “oh yeah, those guys” would be more suited for the Pit and I am _very_ unwilling to go there at the moment. But [this is what happens](http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Histories __Narratives__ Documen/Roma ___Sinti__ Gypsies_/AnnivAuschwitzm.jpg) when the “those guys” sentiments gain control. ---
**Author:** ![Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mercury)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528/4 "2003-08-02T13:28:15Z")
I guess it says a lot that I’ve taken an entire class on the Holocaust and never heard Zigeunernacht mentioned in a classroom. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528/5 "2003-08-02T15:57:29Z")
When I was younger, studying in Austria for a bit, I visited Matthausen KZ-- it was a generally horrifying and thought-provoking experience, but one thing that stood out was a chart in one of the pedagogical rooms, showing all the different “badges”–many, many of them-- with numbers of deaths and such (which was where I actually learned the German word Zigeuner-- it stuck in my mind). Eye opening. If only “nie wieder” in the world could actually. . . be true. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528/6 "2003-08-02T19:19:52Z")
The New York Times has a [review](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/02/arts/television/02GYPS.html) for a documentary about the Porrajmos, which will be shown tomorrow night on Channel Thirteen - WNET @ 10pm. If what I’ve read is correct, that channel airs in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut. I don’t know if other PBS channels around the US are airing it as well. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528/7 "2003-08-02T21:22:04Z")
Thanks, **Kal**. May the Rom recount that night to a hundred generations of their children. Never Forget. ---
**Author:** ![hazel-rah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hazel-rah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hazel-rah)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528/8 "2003-08-03T10:51:26Z")
I think more Dopers should get a chance to read this thread before it sinks. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528/9 "2003-08-03T13:33:22Z")
Always remember. ---
**Author:** ![corvidae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/898d66/32.png) [@corvidae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corvidae)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528/10 "2003-08-03T13:36:06Z")
I’d never heard of Zigeunernacht before. Thanks for posting this, **Kal**. The world should remember these atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528/11 "2003-08-03T14:17:56Z")
We visited the Holocaust Museum in DC several years ago. At least there was some mention of the Roma (as well as other groups) in addition to the main focus on the Jews. Is it fair to say that the Roma are even more marginalized than the Jews? Have there been countries where Roma are welcomed and given special privileges? The movies I can recall where “gypsies” get special treatment, or where the story line addresses more than just casual levels of the society, have all been oddities. Much the same as the Irish Travelers. IIRC, the first significant role Eric Roberts got was in _King Of The Gypsies_ which had Sterling Hayden as the don of the tribe. That one treatment seemed to have some interest in delving into the lifestyle of the Gypsy. Are there others with some sense of dignity to them? Or did I miss the point to KOTG? I second the notion that this thread should be “kept alive” long enough for more Dopers to have a chance to see it. **Kal** has one of the most moving posts I’ve seen in the just-over-a-month that I’ve been posting here. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528/12 "2003-08-04T00:50:19Z")
Speaking as another member of a forgotten group, I have to say I know where Kal is coming from. These stories have got to be told and remembered. Sadly, so many of the stories died with their tellers, in the camps, and in the silence afterward. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528/13 "2003-08-04T02:17:56Z")
That’s the difference right there. Some of the Jews survived. I know several survivors through one Synagogue or another. The tell the story. But if it’s a sweep what happens then? ---
**Author:** ![flood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@flood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flood)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528/14 "2003-08-04T05:12:39Z")
Definetly neither Mundane or Pointless. Thank you for educating yet another one of the many that were uninformed. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528/15 "2004-05-18T00:05:47Z")
> [@Kal](#): > > For various reasons the Nazis decided the camp and its inhabitants should be destroyed. In May, 1944 this plan swung into action and the SS moved in. But, as the SS surrounded the camp, they were met by brave and desperate resistance from Roma and Sinti who had armed themselves with whatever came to hand. > > The SS retreated, the destruction was postponed. Last Sunday was the 60th anniversary of the event described in that quote. A ceremony was held at the German foreign ministry in Berlin, attended by the German President, Johannes Rau; the German Foreign Minister and Auschwitz survivors. From a Deutsche Welle story about the ceremony - [link](http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1432_A_1205089_1_A,00.html): > [@](#): > > Rau responded by strongly criticizing any attempts to suppress, deny or play down the genocide of Sinti and Roma. > > “You stood up against barbarianism in Germany’s darkest hour and thereby held on to the inviolability of human dignity,” Rau (photo) said, addressing Auschwitz survivors in the audience. “For that, you deserve our respect and that’s why your courageous behavior should be much better known than it is today.” ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2004, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528/16 "2004-08-02T23:25:20Z")
This horror took place 60 years ago tonight. Today, the largest ever remembrance ceremony for the Holocaust’s Romani victims took place in Auschwitz - [BBC story with video.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3527024.stm) I was going to write more, but I can’t. I put my beautiful daughter to bed about 2 hours ago and seeing her sleeping in her cot, knowing that in another time, another place, she’d be murdered as a _Zigeunermischlinge_ is just unbearably saddening. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528/17 "2004-08-02T23:49:07Z")
Thanks for helping us to remember, **Kal**. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528/18 "2004-08-03T10:19:37Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > Thanks for helping us to remember, **Kal**. Forgetting the extermination is part of the extermination itself. - Jean Baudrillard. US Senator, Ben Nighthorse Campbell recently mentioned _Zigeunernacht_ and the Porrajmos. The full text of his speech is in the Congressional Record and can be read [here:](http://www.csce.gov/crs_csce.cfm?crs_id=224) > [@](#): > > Madam President, during World War II, some 23,000 Roma were sent to Auschwitz, mostly from Germany, Austria, and the occupied Czech lands. Sixty Years ago, on the night of August 2 and 3, the order was given to liquidate the ``Gypsy Camp’’ at Auschwitz. Over the course of that night, 2,898 men, women, and children were put to death in the gas chambers. In all, an estimated 18,000 Roma died at Auschwitz-Birkenau. > > During the intervening years, Aug. 2 and 3 have become days to remember the Porrajmos, the Romani word that means ``the Devouring,’’ and to mourn the Romani losses of the Holocaust. > > As the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum has suggested, Roma are ``understudied victims’’ of the Nazis. What we don’t know about the Romani experiences during the war is far greater than what is known. > > … > > I do not think I can overstate the consequences of the Porrajmos. Some scholars estimate that as many as half of Europe’s Romani minority perished. For individuals, for families, and for surviving communities, those losses were devastating. Tragically, the post-war treatment of Roma compounded one set of injustices with others. > > … > > As the OSCE participating states prepare for a major conference on racism, discrimination, and xenophobia, to be held in September, I hope they will be prepared to address the persistent manifestations of racism against Roma–manifestations that often carry echoes of the Holocaust. Part of the song used at the start of this post, taken from this BBC radio programme and sung in its original Romani, can be heard here. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528/19 "2004-08-03T15:29:58Z")
Posted at the entrance to Auschwitz: > [@](#): > > **Forgive, but never forget.** We do. But we won’t. Not ever. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-in-august-1944-zigeunernacht/192528/20 "2004-08-03T17:27:44Z")
[An article in today’s Chicago Tribune](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0408030216aug03,1,2248858.story) > [@](#): > > Hugo Hoellenreiner, a German Gypsy who survived the camp along with his parents, recalled the daily horror that included visits by camp doctor Josef Mengele, who used inmates for his experiments. > > “Even today, I cannot understand why they did it to us,” he said in a moving speech. “I can never forgive or forget what happened to us.” > > Monday’s anniversary was observed with speeches and mournful music amid the ruins of dozens of prison barracks on a vast grassy area, still ringed by concrete fence posts, watchtowers and birch trees. > > Germany’s envoy, Environment Minister Juergen Trittin, noted that Gypsies have struggled for wider awareness of their suffering under the Nazis. > > “Like the Jews, the Sinti and Roma were brutally persecuted and systematically murdered with an inhuman determination,” he said. > > “This genocide is part of our history. As Germans, we carry the historic and the political responsibility.” I don’t know the status of the Romani, officially or realistically, in Germany today. I would hope that the last quote is more than just lip service; it’s all well and good to talk about “historic and political responsibility” but if you don’t act on it your words are meaningless.