# One Night Ultimate Werewolf game **URL:** \ **Category:** Thread Games\ **Created:** [December 15, 2015, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500 "2015-12-15T04:11:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500/281 "2015-12-18T01:19:51Z")
I thought this was a relatively simple game. How did yall make it so complicated??? ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500/282 "2015-12-18T01:29:13Z")
> [@TexCat](#): > > I thought this was a relatively simple game. How did yall make it so complicated??? Because they are all lying scumbags put on earth to hurt my brains. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500/283 "2015-12-18T02:05:45Z")
> [@TexCat](#): > > I thought this was a relatively simple game. How did yall make it so complicated??? You’ve played with Biotop before. The man is an amazing analytical engine who can parse through every possible permutation and arrangement in order to come to the necessary level of complexity to either find the solution or to make it such an inspired morass of highly textured chaos that mere mortals such as I can only marvel, even as we’re being happily lynched. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500/284 "2015-12-18T04:29:42Z")
\*\*Hooker \*\*, Just a guess… I understand that you might not want to give up your ex-partner if he is still in the game, but it would go a long way towards convincing everyone that we are both now telling the truth. ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500/285 "2015-12-18T13:29:23Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > \*\*Hooker \*\*, > > Just a guess… > > I understand that you might not want to give up your ex-partner if he is still in the game, but it would go a long way towards convincing everyone that we are both now telling the truth. If you swapped me, they’d no longer be my partner and I’d have no reason to give them up. If you’re faking me out, you’ll still be able to lynch and win for town. You’re right, there’s no reason not to give up the other wolf. It was, as of my check, one of the three unused tokens. There’s a chance Johnny has it, but I don’t know for certain. I know that I started with one. The other was one of three unclaimed tokens. Unfortunately, that’s the one my “lone wolf” ability revealed. I believe that Prof P now has my wolf token. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500/286 "2015-12-18T14:07:11Z")
Morning thoughts… I’m striking number 7 and 8 from my list. I’ve thought about it more and claiming lone wolf is not a weak claim, Hooker Chemical could have just as easily pointed to snfaulker as a wolf partner to muddy the waters just as easily with the same effect. As for the role peek, HookerChemical could have just as easily claimed he saw insomniac or villager without breaking the story or eliciting more suspicion. Reasons not to believe biotop: (1) His counterclaim of troublemaker is passive. (2) He claims to have lied about his actions in response to seeing someone else (me) lie about his role’s actions\* (3) The state of the game before Biotop announced his lie had HookerChemical as one of the prime suspects as a wolf. (4) Biotop’s lack of firm confirmedness was also a topic of discussion at the time. If Inner Stickler chose one of snfaulker, Biotop and HookerChemical, that would most likely lead to a village win. (5) The circumstances of Biotops amended claim completely changes the endgame. If Biotop’s revised switch made no difference, I would be inclined to believe him. But the result completely changes who we should target. That looks like design and not ‘coincidence.’ (6) HookerChemical trusted Biotop extremely quickly. Biotop has lied already, there is little reason to think he wouldn’t lie again. del HookerChemical is conveniently a lone wolf. (8) And of course the role peek is… wolf.[/del] The nuance that has been bothering me is Biotop’s claim. He did counterclaim me pretty quickly which made him look like he was telling the truth, but now that I think about it more I realize that given HookerChemical’s claim, a wolf Biotop had a very good reason to counterclaim ‘the real troublemaker.’ At the time of my claim, the presumption was everyone was telling the truth, which was mostly true. Only Inner Stickler had lied up to that point. When I false claimed troublemaker, a wolf Biotop was put in a bad place. In my claim I said I switched HookerChemical(wolf) with Mahaloth(villager). This put Biotop in a losing position. Given this context, Biotop counterclaiming me makes much more sense. Biotop had to challenge my claim or else he was guaranteed to lose. (At least as far as he thought since he thought I was being truthful). Plausibility is not proof, but I submit the above reasoning as a counter argument as to why Biotop claimed troublemaker to counter my claim. I also submit that it explains why he wasn’t willing to let Mahaloth and HookerChemical respond to my claim. Please also note that Johnny Bravo had already explained the implications of my troublemaker claim publicly before Biotop counterclaimed me. > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Okay, so now we just wait for the rest of the claims. > > If the game started with two wolves, and if only one of them was Mahaloth or HookerChemical, then town wins the game. > > This is either good or bad for me depending on my mystery role. Oh well! It’s only 13 minutes before Biotop’s counterclaim, but it is there. AND Biotop does not follow up and address the implications of his counterclaim on the information we might have gleaned. My new #7 is: (7b) Biotop did not allow the claimed HookerChemical/Mahaloth switch play out I’m pretty convinced. Is no one going to argue for lynching Prof P? The way I see it is HookerChemical and Biotop are guaranteed a win with a Prof P lynch regardless of whether Biotop is truthful. Prof P is guaranteed a win with a lynch of HookerChemical or Biotop regardless of whether Biotop is truthful. What I do not want is for us to wind up splitting our vote between Biotop and HookerChemical and screwing things up that way. I suggest we agree to only vote for Biotop or Prof P. Do NOT vote for HookerChemical. (Or we can flip Hooker and Biotop, it doesn’t matter, but we need to be clear on which of Biotop or HookerChemical gets the votes) OR we just vote for Inner Stickler and let him sort it out. But we do need to coordinate a bit. I will be quite pissed if we wind up losing because the majority voted for Inner, Biotop and Hooker, but Prof P ends up lynched. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500/287 "2015-12-18T14:09:57Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > \*\*Hooker \*\*, > > Just a guess… > > I understand that you might not want to give up your ex-partner if he is still in the game, but it would go a long way towards convincing everyone that we are both now telling the truth. (8b) Coaching by Biotop to HookerChemical. This is a pretty blatant call for HookerChemical to accuse snfaulker of being a wolf. The phrasing is really weird too. “if he is still in the game” _still_? That’s minor though compared to the call to muddy the waters even more. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500/288 "2015-12-18T14:23:05Z")
> [@HookerChemical](#): > > Like this? > > I was cautious about committing to my claim because I suspected Biotop was out to bait me. The posts overnight gave me enough comfort to claim. It was hardly a slam-dunk, but if it was legit, I would lose by not claiming. I’m not seeing either of you engage each other. You asked a question of Biotop that went into the void. Biotop left it unanswered and then merely the passing of time let you feel comfortable in claiming wolf. I’m not buying it. What specifically ‘gave you enough comfort to claim’? At no point did you, HookerChemical, attempt to affirm that you were a villager to see what Biotop. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500/289 "2015-12-18T14:26:37Z")
I’m going to vote for Biotop. Let me know if I should switch it to Inner Sticker. I don’t see any possible way for Inner Stickler to be a wolf, but I’ll vote for him if that’s what JB, TC, Mahaltoh, and Wolverine want. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500/290 "2015-12-18T14:29:20Z")
I’d like to hear who Inner Stickler plans on voting for. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500/291 "2015-12-18T14:31:19Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > (8b) Coaching by Biotop to HookerChemical. This is a pretty blatant call for HookerChemical to accuse snfaulker of being a wolf. > > The phrasing is really weird too. “if he is still in the game” _still_? That’s minor though compared to the call to muddy the waters even more. Sigh. I don’t have time today to put together a defense of the charges you lay at my door. Work again, of course. I will defend myself later this weekend. In the meantime **sachertorte** , can you explain to me what you envision has gone down in this game and ask others if they really think it makes sense. Because I am going to feel like an incompetent dolt if I can’t get \*\*Prof. P. \*\* lynched now that I am certain he is Wolf, and possibly the only Wolf. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500/292 "2015-12-18T14:38:27Z")
Except there’s a perfectly good chance I’m not the Wolf. I’ll be voting along with my fellow Mason. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500/293 "2015-12-18T15:22:59Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Except there’s a perfectly good chance I’m not the Wolf. I’ll be voting along with my fellow Mason. Well you can’t vote for yourself… Come on folks. Can’t you see I am telling the truth now? I wouldn’t have needed to make up a second switch if I was a wolf. The vote was not going to go to \*\*Hooker \*\*or myself at the time! Why would I make up a second lie that actually draws attention to **HookerChemical**??? ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500/294 "2015-12-18T15:39:46Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > In the meantime **sachertorte** , can you explain to me what you envision has gone down in this game and ask others if they really think it makes sense. Umm, I’ve already done that. I even specifically asked one of the other ‘confirmed’ to lay out a case against Prof P (i.e. pro-you). > [@Biotop](#): > > Well you can’t vote for yourself… > > Come on folks. Can’t you see I am telling the truth now? I wouldn’t have needed to make up a second switch if I was a wolf. The vote was not going to go to \*\*Hooker \*\*or myself at the time! Why would I make up a second lie that actually draws attention to **HookerChemical**??? I’ve already addressed this. The state of the game prior to your switch switch was we were going to kill Inner Stickler and leave him to kill either snfaulker or HookerChemical. That was pretty clear. Did you miss that or something? I was also grumbling about how YOU could be a wolf too, so at least for me, my short list for wolves was HookerChemical, Biotop and snfaulker. HookerChemical, even though absent, was already drawing attention. At least he was from me. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500/295 "2015-12-18T15:42:01Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Except there’s a perfectly good chance I’m not the Wolf. I’ll be voting along with my fellow Mason. It doesn’t matter if you are a wolf or not. You win if Biotop dies either way. You are in the peculiar situation of not knowing which team you are on, but knowing exactly who you need dead to win. Biotop and HookerChemical know which team they are on and who they need dead to win as well. The rest of us know which team we are on, but not who we need dead to win. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500/296 "2015-12-18T15:42:46Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > **Inner Stickler** , Enlighten us on who you wanna hunt, should we decide to kill you… No one. I’m a villager. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500/297 "2015-12-18T15:43:04Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > I wouldn’t have needed to make up a second switch if I was a wolf. The vote was not going to go to \*\*Hooker \*\*or myself at the time! Why would I make up a second lie that actually draws attention to **HookerChemical**??? No, no, no, no, no. I took notes while I was moderating my Trouble in Paradise game and I noticed you making the same kinds of arguments there. Observe the following, all from a single post. > [@Trouble in Paradise (Mafia Game Thread)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trouble-in-paradise-mafia-game-thread/735585/754): > > If I am Scum, why did I try and throw my fellow wolf under the bus on the first Day? > … > None of us knew there was a vigilante. So why would I do that if Scum? I wouldn’t. > … > If I am Scum, why would I do that? > … > Why would I not instead vote for another player so that I would look good the next day for not having supported the mislynch? > … > Why would I do that if Scum? I wouldn’t. > … > If I am Scum then I am throwing\*\* Professor Pepperwinkle **under the bus and Scum** Mahaloth \*\*would be trying to do the same thing to me. > … > Why would we interact like that? We wouldn’t. > … > I hope I am not lynched toDay. I am not asking you to believe me that I am Town. I am asking you to look at my total record. Does it make any sense at all for me to be wolf? The answer is the same then as it is now: “because wolf players are clever and they have information that nobody else does.” Please note that I’m not trying to use a metastrategy against you, Biotop. You’ve only played a few games and you haven’t developed a personal meta yet. I’m bringing it up because I had this same thought during the last game and very much wished I was town so that I could have brought it up. Wolves will do whatever they think will get them the win, including using purposefully suboptimal strategy. “Why would I?” is not a good defense. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500/298 "2015-12-18T15:44:05Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > No one. I’m a villager. Screw this. I’m voting for Inner Stickler. ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500/299 "2015-12-18T15:47:23Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > I’m not seeing either of you engage each other. You asked a question of Biotop that went into the void. Biotop left it unanswered and then merely the passing of time let you feel comfortable in claiming wolf. I’m not buying it. What specifically ‘gave you enough comfort to claim’? > > At no point did you, HookerChemical, attempt to affirm that you were a villager to see what Biotop. It wasn’t anything specific Biotop said. It was the passage of time (giving him time to switch up to somebody else unconfirmable like Inner Stickler or snfaulkner) and his comments that we were well past the early game where lies should be flying fast and furious. This was also a contributing factor: > [@sachertorte](#): > > We wait to see if hookerchemical changes claim in light of being switched. If hooker is a wolf then things get clearer in terms of what to do. > > Funny thing is when I was fake claiming I considered switching hookerchemical and prof p. But I decided to switch two unknowns instead for better odds of hitting a wolf. The implications were already pretty clear, but this put them all on the table. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500/300 "2015-12-18T15:49:33Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > No one. I’m a villager. You guys sort this one out. I’m done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-night-ultimate-werewolf-game/740500.md?page=16)