# One of the Greatest Questions you can ever ask \[Knowing Truth -- Witnessing \] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288 "2013-06-30T21:16:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/21 "2013-07-01T00:38:57Z")
I’m fine with some of what the bible says, but other parts of it are monstrous. I don’t believe such a god exists, but if he did, I couldn’t follow him, due to the mass murder, tolerance of slavery, repression of women, etc. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/22 "2013-07-01T01:02:06Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Sad part is, minus the witnessing, it’s an interesting question. Indeed it is. I actually suspect that western epistemology has been seriously warped by Christian ideas about the nature of truth. Until very recently any philosophical theory that hoped to explain the nature of knowledge had to encompass (sometimes explicitly, sometimes surreptitiously) the notion of divine revelation. The fact that truth survives as a contemporary concept is a lingering legacy of medieval theories about the relationship of mind to world forged out of the necessity to justify particular approaches to Biblical exegesis. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/23 "2013-07-01T01:15:22Z")
> [@tomana](#): > > Jesus Christ said, “They have eyes but can not see and ears but can not hear.” There’s a fail up front. We have _no idea_ what Jesus Christ said. We don’t even know if he existed. What he may have said was _not_ recorded by eyewitnesses, and what’s in the Bible are not eyewitness accounts. Using the Bible as an historical reference will not get you any validity outside of religious circles, so it’s a waste of time in any debate outside of theological fantasy. The truth is not in there. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/24 "2013-07-01T01:27:49Z")
> [@Itself](#): > > I’m just glad the Time Cube site doesn’t have a forum. You’re GLAD? To me it is the greatest tragedy of the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/25 "2013-07-01T01:28:26Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > That’s YHVH, you infidel! Yeah, but we have to have some way of saying it. Me, I prefer YaHuWaHu. To the OP: I have what I consider **contingent** truths. There are some things I assume as axiomatic, but I recognize that they are, and if these things are incorrect, I freely admit that everything else I believe to be true is false. Here are my axioms: 1. There is an objective reality out there that would exist even if I didn’t pay attention to it. 2. My senses offer me a way to gather information about that objective reality. I may misunderstand that information, but there’s usually a relationship between what I perceive and what’s objectively there. 3. Some system of logic applies to the universe. Specifically, P and not-P cannot both be true (understanding that not-P means “It is not the case that…”). If the statement “objective reality exists” is true, then the statement “It is not hte case that objective reality exists” is false. 4. Reason applies to the universe: specifically, similar causes in similar circumstances beget similar effects. Events in the past may be used to predict events in the future. Yesterday when I opened my refrigerator, the light came on; it’s pretty likely that if I open my refrigerator today, the light will come on. If it didn’t, I’ll probably be able to track down some difference in the circumstances (maybe the light burned out). I think those are all my axiomatic beliefs. Everything else I believe is based on assuming the truth of these beliefs. Based on those axiomatic beliefs, I do not believe that the New Testament is an accurate representation of the universe. I do not believe that there is any god that resembles the one described in the Bible. I do not believe that the character of Jesus in the Bible is an accurate characterization of a real person who performed real miracles. If you disagree with me (and I predict you will), you’ll either disagree with one or more of my axioms, or you’ll agree with my axioms but somehow get from these axioms to a conclusion different from my own. Care to explain which it is? [I hope the note’s unnecessary, but I’m notoriously fainthearted around these parts; if you turn the conversation into a personal attack on me or question my sincerity, I’ll wander away from the conversation.] ---
**Author:** ![tomana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@tomana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomana)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/26 "2013-07-01T03:03:55Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > We don’t even know if he existed. a person can’t find God for the same reason a thief can’t find a police man … it’s because he ain’t looking. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yeah, but we have to have some way of saying it. Me, I prefer YaHuWaHu. > > To the OP: I have what I consider **contingent** truths. There are some things I assume as axiomatic, but I recognize that they are, and if these things are incorrect, I freely admit that everything else I believe to be true is false. > > Here are my axioms: > > 1. There is an objective reality out there that would exist even if I didn’t pay attention to it. > 2. My senses offer me a way to gather information about that objective reality. I may misunderstand that information, but there’s usually a relationship between what I perceive and what’s objectively there. > 3. Some system of logic applies to the universe. Specifically, P and not-P cannot both be true (understanding that not-P means “It is not the case that…”). If the statement “objective reality exists” is true, then the statement “It is not hte case that objective reality exists” is false. > 4. Reason applies to the universe: specifically, similar causes in similar circumstances beget similar effects. Events in the past may be used to predict events in the future. Yesterday when I opened my refrigerator, the light came on; it’s pretty likely that if I open my refrigerator today, the light will come on. If it didn’t, I’ll probably be able to track down some difference in the circumstances (maybe the light burned out). > > I think those are all my axiomatic beliefs. Everything else I believe is based on assuming the truth of these beliefs. > > Based on those axiomatic beliefs, I do not believe that the New Testament is an accurate representation of the universe. I do not believe that there is any god that resembles the one described in the Bible. I do not believe that the character of Jesus in the Bible is an accurate characterization of a real person who performed real miracles. > > If you disagree with me (and I predict you will), you’ll either disagree with one or more of my axioms, or you’ll agree with my axioms but somehow get from these axioms to a conclusion different from my own. Care to explain which it is? > > [I hope the note’s unnecessary, but I’m notoriously fainthearted around these parts; if you turn the conversation into a personal attack on me or question my sincerity, I’ll wander away from the conversation.] you sound autistic, perhaps Aspergers? I have a friend who talks like you and he has Aspergers. Really neat guy, see things differently that many but I like his perspective on things and I learn a lot from him. He’s a Christian (yes Virginia, Christians can have infirmities). ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/27 "2013-07-01T03:08:05Z")
> [@tomana](#): > > a person can’t find God for the same reason a thief can’t find a police man … it’s because he ain’t looking. > > you sound autistic, perhaps Aspergers? I have a friend who talks like you and he has Aspergers. Really neat guy, see things differently that many but I like his perspective on things and I learn a lot from him. He’s a Christian (yes Virginia, Christians can have infirmities). I have solid evidence that the police exist. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/28 "2013-07-01T03:32:33Z")
> [@tomana](#): > > a person can’t find God for the same reason a thief can’t find a police man … it’s because he ain’t looking. And if you hang out in barbershops, sooner or later you will get a haircut. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/29 "2013-07-01T03:36:00Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Jesus, if he existed at all, was just a guy who grew up in a primitive time, in a particularly backwards area. He has nothing useful to tell you, bro. He was a carpenter- take that advice about house foundations seriously. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tomana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@tomana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomana)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/30 "2013-07-01T03:37:49Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > I have solid evidence that the police exist. Some things need to be believed to be seen. If I were able to give you ‘solid evidence’ of God, what would you do? You think you would believe but you would not, just the same as the Jews who said they knew God but when God came, in the flesh, they knew him not nor did many of them want to know him. You’re no different, neither am I or anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/31 "2013-07-01T03:44:33Z")
So He only reveals himself to those who believes? What does that accomplish? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/32 "2013-07-01T03:52:29Z")
> [@tomana](#): > > Some things need to be believed to be seen. Yes-they are called “delusions”. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/33 "2013-07-01T03:53:22Z")
So the truth of Christianity is revealed to people who believe in Christianity. But the truth of Islam is revealed to people who believe in Islam, the truth of Buddhism is revealed to people who believe in Buddhism, the truth of Daoism is revealed to people who believe in Daoism. All of these religions (and others) have people who believe they are true. So how do we know that the people that believe in Christianity are right and the people that believe in other religions are wrong? And how do we pick which religion to believe in, when they all look the same from the outside? ---
**Author:** ![tomana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@tomana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomana)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/34 "2013-07-01T03:56:05Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > So He only reveals himself to those who believes? What does that accomplish? It accomplishes His purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/35 "2013-07-01T03:58:20Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > He was a carpenter- take that advice about house foundations seriously. 😉 Piffle. First century carpentry in the ass-end of the Roman Empire? I wouldn’t trust him to build the cross He was crucified on. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/36 "2013-07-01T03:58:26Z")
What’s the purpose? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/37 "2013-07-01T03:59:25Z")
> [@tomana](#): > > It accomplishes His purpose. He doesn’t have a purpose, because He doesn’t exist. You’re wasting your life on a fairy tale. Stop living a lie, bro. ---
**Author:** ![tomana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@tomana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomana)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/38 "2013-07-01T04:04:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So the truth of Christianity is revealed to people who believe in Christianity. But the truth of Islam is revealed to people who believe in Islam, the truth of Buddhism is revealed to people who believe in Buddhism, the truth of Daoism is revealed to people who believe in Daoism. All of these religions (and others) have people who believe they are true. > > So how do we know that the people that believe in Christianity are right and the people that believe in other religions are wrong? And how do we pick which religion to believe in, when they all look the same from the outside? Very insightful questions. “So how do we know that the people that believe in Christianity are right and the people that believe in other religions are wrong?” You don’t, until you know the truth. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life” (John 14:6). Jesus was one of three possibilities: - a liar - a lunatic - he was who he said he was … God come in the flesh It’s up to you if you will look into this, or not. “how do we pick which religion to believe in, when they all look the same from the outside?” You don’t pick a religion, God picks you. If you truly desire to know God he will make himself known to you, he promised this - it’s in the bible. He said those who seek him with all their heart WILL find Him. Remember, he is not lost, we are 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/39 "2013-07-01T04:12:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [I hope the note’s unnecessary, but I’m notoriously fainthearted around these parts; if you turn the conversation into a personal attack on me or question my sincerity, I’ll wander away from the conversation.] > [@tomana](#): > > you sound autistic, perhaps Aspergers? Wow–just–wow. Nice personal attack (and watch me show my lack of Asperger’s by predicting your defense/offense of saying you weren’t attacking me by claiming I’m autistic/calling me some variant of bigot for even suggesting that was an attack). But maybe you really didn’t mean it that way, so I’ll give you one more chance: No. I’m not autistic. I don’t have Asperger’s. Far, far from it. But if you want to discuss “truth” with anything approaching rigor, anything more than just, “Like, man, it’s ALL true, whatever your truth, dude, Groovy!” or “Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it,” then you need to, y’know, have some rigor. I was showing you what that might look like. So let’s try one more time. If you think there’s truth out there, how do YOU figure out what’s true and what’s not? Is belief in Jesus axiomatic for you? If so, why? ---
**Author:** ![tomana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@tomana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomana)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/40 "2013-07-01T04:12:38Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > What’s the purpose? His being glorified, simply because he is God and therefore, worthy of glory. Everything is about Him. He created the earth and everything in it to show His glory and for His enjoyment. That he shares it with his creation still amazes me [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288.md?page=3)