# One of the Greatest Questions you can ever ask \[Knowing Truth -- Witnessing \] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288 "2013-06-30T21:16:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/41 "2013-07-01T04:15:07Z")
Sez you. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/42 "2013-07-01T04:15:47Z")
> [@tomana](#): > > You don’t, until you know the truth. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life” (John 14:6). Jesus was one of three possibilities: > > - a liar > - a lunatic > - he was who he said he was … God come in the flesh Actually, there are plenty more possibilities: 4) Mistaken 5) Misquoted 6) Fictional 7) Poetical 8) Mistranslated and so forth. Not only do these possibilities exist, but there are literally tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people who believe each one (probably millions, but I’m being conservative). Plenty of people think Jesus was just mistaken–but that doesn’t make him a lunatic. Plenty of people think he was speaking poetically (“I” in this case might mean "My message of love, for example). Plenty of people think Jesus didn’t actually exist. Plenty think that the apostles misrepresented him. Suggesting he’s a liar, a lunatic, or a god unnecessarily narrows the debate. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/43 "2013-07-01T04:16:58Z")
> [@tomana](#): > > you sound autistic, perhaps Aspergers? That’s a rude response to a detailed and thought-out reply to your post. Next time try engaging posters’ ideas instead of dismissing them this way. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/44 "2013-07-01T04:19:01Z")
> [@tomana](#): > > His being glorified, simply because he is God and therefore, worthy of glory. Everything is about Him. He created the earth and everything in it to show His glory and for His enjoyment. That he shares it with his creation still amazes me And this gets into theodicy–the question of evil. You’re telling me that the creator of the world created ebola and enabled it to be spread to children for his **enjoyment**? You’re telling me that when thousands of people are buried alive in volcanic ash, He does that to show His glory? Are you familiar with HP Lovecraft and his Cthulhu mythos? Early 20th century horror writer who created a whole stable of gods who were completely alien, who would wipe out humanity without even knowing we were there, who at the very best regarded us as playthings. They’re really, really evil. But what you suggest eclipses Lovecraft’s vision. His gods simply didn’t care about us. Your god creates horrifying diseases and natural disasters for His enjoyment. He might be worthy of fear, worthy of worship, worthy of dread. But worthy of glory? Hardly. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/45 "2013-07-01T04:18:55Z")
> [@tomana](#): > > If you truly desire to know God he will make himself known to you, he promised this - it’s in the bible. I take it you are referring to Romans 1:19-20? [QUOTE=Romans 1:19-20] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. [/quote] But this can’t really be it, can it? He didn’t “promise” this. This was one of Paul’s letters after all, not from God directly. I suppose it could be indirect, but that’s not what **you** claimed. And it’s not really a promise. It’s more a declaration that it should be obvious. But here **you** are claiming that it’s not really obvious to everybody - only to the people God has chosen to make it obvious. That directly contradicts **your** claims (assuming this is the passage to which you refer - by the way, some actual Biblical references go a LONG way). Look, the Bible says a lot of things. Maybe this isn’t even the passage you reference. But even if it isn’t, it directly contradicts what you claim the Bible says in another place. So, again, it’s not been promised, it’s not in the Bible (at least not in an uncontradicted way), and it’s not reasonable for people to accept **your** word for what the Bible says. You’ll find this message board is full of people who aren’t Christian but who have studied the Bible more than the vast majority of Christians. You’re not going to gain any traction unless you do a better job of actually referencing passages directly instead of giving it filtered through you (and/or anybody else you got these ideas from). Disclaimer: I have more or less outed myself in previous threads as being Christian - albeit one that appreciates logic and that it’s not illogical to not follow Christianity. And I still have to say, you’ve got no logical legs to stand on. The Jesuits did a much better job, and they still didn’t have an ultimately convincing argument. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/46 "2013-07-01T04:19:43Z")
> [@tomana](#): > > His being glorified, simply because he is God and therefore, worthy of glory. Everything is about Him. He created the earth and everything in it to show His glory and for His enjoyment. That he shares it with his creation still amazes me Creating a race of people to grovel at your feet is what a pathetic child would do. Why do you worship such a sorry being? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/47 "2013-07-01T04:36:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But what you suggest eclipses Lovecraft’s vision. His gods simply didn’t care about us. **Your god creates horrifying diseases and natural disasters for His enjoyment.** Even worse, according to the great thinkers of the day, He does this as punishment for sins(which I thought Hell was for). And his aim is lousy. Punishing San Francisco results in a tidal wave halfway around the globe and more straight people are killed than gay. ---
**Author:** ![tomana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@tomana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomana)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/48 "2013-07-01T04:37:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Wow–just–wow. Nice personal attack (and watch me show my lack of Asperger’s by predicting your defense/offense of saying you weren’t attacking me by claiming I’m autistic/calling me some variant of bigot for even suggesting that was an attack). > > But maybe you really didn’t mean it that way, so I’ll give you one more chance: > > No. I’m not autistic. I don’t have Asperger’s. Far, far from it. But if you want to discuss “truth” with anything approaching rigor, anything more than just, “Like, man, it’s ALL true, whatever your truth, dude, Groovy!” or “Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it,” then you need to, y’know, have some rigor. I was showing you what that might look like. > > So let’s try one more time. If you think there’s truth out there, how do YOU figure out what’s true and what’s not? Is belief in Jesus axiomatic for you? If so, why? "But maybe you really didn’t mean it that way, so I’ll give you one more chance: " You’re correct, I ment no offense whatsoever regarding my asking if you were asperger. Regarding if my belief in Jesus is axiomatic for me I would say, “no, not all the time.” As you know, axiomatic means Self-evident or unquestionable. ---
**Author:** ![tomana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@tomana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomana)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/49 "2013-07-01T04:42:31Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Creating a race of people to grovel at your feet is what a pathetic child would do. Why do you worship such a sorry being? A Christian does not grovel at His feet but those who do not know Him will. I do not have to beg, though to me pleading can seem, from time to time, to be the same as begging. I don’t worship a sorry being, I worship the Lord of lords who is worthy to receive our worship. Interesting, that you call God a being 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/50 "2013-07-01T04:42:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why do every single one of them post as if this “Great Truth” is something brand new that never occurred anyone else in the past, like they are speaking to a bunch of savages that never read the Bible, went to church, or even thought about the concept of gods? Because they read a few of the threads and saw how some of us treat each other? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![tomana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@tomana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomana)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/51 "2013-07-01T04:52:21Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And this gets into theodicy–the question of evil. You’re telling me that the creator of the world created ebola and enabled it to be spread to children for his **enjoyment**? You’re telling me that when thousands of people are buried alive in volcanic ash, He does that to show His glory? > > Are you familiar with HP Lovecraft and his Cthulhu mythos? Early 20th century horror writer who created a whole stable of gods who were completely alien, who would wipe out humanity without even knowing we were there, who at the very best regarded us as playthings. They’re really, really evil. > > But what you suggest eclipses Lovecraft’s vision. His gods simply didn’t care about us. Your god creates horrifying diseases and natural disasters for His enjoyment. > > He might be worthy of fear, worthy of worship, worthy of dread. But worthy of glory? Hardly. One needs to know what “God’s glory” means, not just what one thinks or wants it to mean. The bible says it is God who controls all weather and yes, that he sends it (tornadoes, etc) for correction : Job 37:9-13 He loads the thick cloud with moisture; the clouds scatter his lightning. 12 They turn around and around by his guidance, to accomplish all that he commands them on the face of the habitable world. 13 Whether for correction or for his land or for love, he causes it to happen. We can’t make clouds, can’t make it rain but we like to think we know how God ought to do things. THAT is why Jesus went to the cross, to make a way where there was no way to save us from OURSELVES. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/52 "2013-07-01T04:55:33Z")
> [@tomana](#): > > A Christian does not grovel at His feet but those who do not know Him will. I do not have to beg, though to me pleading can seem, from time to time, to be the same as begging. Prayer is begging. At least prayer for an effect. > [@](#): > > I don’t worship a sorry being, I worship the Lord of lords who is worthy to receive our worship. No, you worship a fictional Babylonian storm God who got repurposed as the Jewish high roller. He’s not real. A bronze-age attempt at explaining where thunder comes from. > [@](#): > > Interesting, that you call God a being 😉 I’d call Superman a man, that doesn’t mean he exists. Surely you are able to understand that? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/53 "2013-07-01T05:14:17Z")
> [@tomana](#): > > The bible says it is God who controls all weather and yes, that he sends it (tornadoes, etc) for correction So the recent tornadoes in Oklahoma that killed all those little kids … God did that? Man, killing little kids is stone cold EVIL. ☹ Why would you worship someone like that? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/54 "2013-07-01T05:33:34Z")
Because it beats thinking for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/55 "2013-07-01T07:09:05Z")
When I want Truth, I rely on the prophet Cecil Adams. ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/56 "2013-07-01T07:24:34Z")
> [@tomana](#): > > I believe one of the greatest questions that can be asked is: > > “What do I base my truth upon?” I realize you came here to preach, but perhaps you can learn. The epistemological question you raise is very difficult. See this [article](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/religion-epistemology/) in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. “I believe because I choose to believe” (i.e., faith) is a tremendously thin epistemological foundation. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/57 "2013-07-01T07:47:18Z")
> [@tomana](#): > > One needs to know what “God’s glory” means, not just what one thinks or wants it to mean. The bible says it is God who controls all weather and yes, that he sends it (tornadoes, etc) for correction : > > We can’t make clouds, can’t make it rain but we like to think we know how God ought to do things. THAT is why Jesus went to the cross, to make a way where there was no way to save us from OURSELVES. Guess what? We know a bit more than they did back then. We can predict areas where tornadoes are likely to hit. We understand how tornadoes get formed, and no god is required. We can even seed clouds for rain, but the moisture must be there. And we can make clouds - nuclear bombs among other ways. You should stop parroting your religious pamphlets and think for yourself. How come tornadoes hit some of the most Christian parts of the country? Maybe God hates Christians. Or maybe there is no god and the people hit just live in a bad place for tornadoes. I live in the sinful Bay Area, and we’ve had one tornado in the 16 years I’ve been there - and that headed right for a church. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/58 "2013-07-01T11:19:40Z")
> [@tomana](#): > > I don’t worship a sorry being, I worship the Lord of lords who is worthy to receive our worship. How is someone who kills and tortures so many worthy of your worship? Have you actually _read_ the bible, or just the parts that sound good? Are you aware of what an evil monster God is shown to be, repeatedly? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/59 "2013-07-01T12:37:13Z")
> [@tomana](#): > > This is my first post … thanks for the opportunity to join in > > I believe one of the greatest questions that can be asked is: > > “What do I base my truth upon?” > > Upon what, or whom, do you base what is correct, accurate, factual, the truth? How do you know it’s correct, the truth? What, exactly, is the foundation on which you build your depository of what you call truth ? > > One of the greatest barriers to knowing the truth is the presumption that we already have it. > > Ignorance is darkness and yet, those who possess her think they are in the light. That’s called self-deception (to be in darkness [error] while you’re thinking you’re in the light [correct] is a deception). There are other types of deceptions as well but many seem to prefer to tell themselves they are not, or are seldom, deceived. Or that they can only be deceived if they carelessly let their guard down. Nothing could be further from the truth. > > Jesus Christ said, “They have eyes but can not see and ears but can not hear.” > > Many like to think they see and hear the truth but they do not. > > Truth is that which is correct and right, as compared to what is in error and therefore wrong. But according to whom - you, me or is there someone much greater whom we must turn to? > > Many say they want the truth but many really do not want it, they just like to think they do and more often prefer to tell them self they already have it. Truth can usually be proven at some time, Belief cannot. Once something is proven then it is no longer just belief but fact. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288/60 "2013-07-01T12:39:43Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Jesus, if he existed at all, was just a guy who grew up in a primitive time, in a particularly backwards area. He has nothing useful to tell you, bro. Actually we cannot prove it was the words of Jesus, just what someone wrote that he said! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-greatest-questions-you-can-ever-ask-knowing-truth-witnessing/662288.md?page=4)