# One of the most frustrating things about learning another language . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 1, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039 "2008-10-01T18:59:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039/21 "2008-10-02T12:54:35Z")
Hey, like I said, that was my first pass 🙂 Shakira’s lyrics tend to be like Pterry’s novels: lots of sentences which play with the multiple meanings of words. In that particular example, both _razón_ and _doblar_ have multiple meanings, and any combination you care to pick up makes sense. I think part of the reason I favor the “double” meaning of doblar over “fold” is that Shakira, while extremely flexible, doesn’t stick me as someone who’ll turn herself into pretzels for many people. If she was, the sharks would have eaten her years ago, when she was still an itty-bitty sardine. No idea whether I’m projecting or not 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039/22 "2008-10-02T13:24:03Z")
Or she may just be projecting to be a sardine, but be a real shark! 😃 (And thus we’ve hijacked the thread. And maybe confuse someone with word meanings. Someone else can bring it back to its regular schedule.) ---
**Author:** ![BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039/23 "2008-10-02T13:55:20Z")
> [@Usram](#): > > _Même_ is also French, and means roughly “same” or “even”, except not quite. If I remember my French correctly, _même_ means even and _meme_ means same. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039/24 "2008-10-02T14:08:38Z")
> [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](#): > > If I remember my French correctly, _même_ means even and _meme_ means same. You don’t, because it’s always spelled _même_ and basically means same or even, depending on the case. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039/25 "2008-10-02T17:34:20Z")
“même” is also complicated by expressions such as “quand même” and “moi même”, neither one of which make much sense literally. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2008, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039/26 "2008-10-02T18:03:39Z")
A brief defense of your Prof. - you aren’t the only one in the class (I assume!), and even though you are smart enough to understand that you can’t just substitute the equivalent words in Spanish and get the correct translation, others in your class may not get that concept. She needs to focus everyone’s studies, not just yours. That being said, I share your fascination. To me, there’s something about the way in which a different language uses an idiomatic expression that conveys something about their worldview. Have you talked to the prof. about how that is something which interests you? It may help both of you. (It’s not very fun to be teaching a class when one of the students asks an interesting question that could hijack the discussion - do you satisfy the legitimate curiousity of that student when the rest of the class may not be ready for the full answer? Tough call, even for an experienced prof.) Anyway, hoping you can resolve it, as you sound like a highly motivated and interested student of the language. ---
**Author:** ![BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039/27 "2008-10-03T01:11:38Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > You don’t, because it’s always spelled _même_ and basically means same or even, depending on the case. Huh, I had time to look it up and you’re right (not that I was doubting you with the conviction with which you posted), but I could have sworn there was some common French word that changed meaning depending on the presence or lack or a _circonflex_. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039/28 "2008-10-03T01:27:19Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > **Olive** , which is the meaning of “silly” that you think doesn’t translate well into Spanish _tonto_? I agree that calling someone or something “tonto” isn’t a compliment, but it’s also something which changes a lot with its context. _Hacer el tonto_ (to clown around) is completely different from _estar tonto_ (to have a blonde moment) or _ser tonto_ (to be dumb), much less _ser tonto del culo_ (to be so dim you burned out before they placed you on the lamp). Oh, and then there’s _tontear_ (to clown around or to flirt)… have you ever heard the expresion _ésa es una tonta de las que hacen tontear_? (yeah yeah, she’s one of those ‘natural blondes’ who end up wearing everybody else’s brains around their own little fingers) > > And yes, I got all the back translations without using “silly” once 😃 This kind of games is always fun, as well as a great way to build vocabulary. My Thai GF speaks about three Spanish words, and _tonto_ is one of them. It’s amazing the whole range of meaning she can convey by simply changing the intonation… :o As for the “Sólo tu doblas mi razón” translation, it’s not literal and assumes an artistic license, but I think in this case the meaning rather than a direct translation would be “only you can subdue (bend/twist/overtake) my will”. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039/29 "2008-10-03T01:47:02Z")
> [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](#): > > Huh, I had time to look it up and you’re right (not that I was doubting you with the conviction with which you posted), but I could have sworn there was some common French word that changed meaning depending on the presence or lack or a _circonflex_. You might be thinking of ou/où - the first means ‘or’, the second means ‘where’. They sound exactly the same; it’s only spelling and context which defines them. A completely untranslatable scene in Beaumarchais’ ‘Le Marriage de Figaro’ features Bartolo and Figaro arguing back and forth over which of the two words is written in the loan contract between Figaro and Marcelline. F: Ou. B: Où. F: Ou! B: Où! F: Ou!! B: Où!! ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039/30 "2008-10-03T01:54:05Z")
> [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](#): > > Huh, I had time to look it up and you’re right (not that I was doubting you with the conviction with which you posted), but I could have sworn there was some common French word that changed meaning depending on the presence or lack or a _circonflex_. My apologies for a double post… ---
**Author:** ![Pyper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pyper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pyper)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039/31 "2008-10-03T04:27:16Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Also, I’ve yet to find a satisfactory translation of the English ‘‘silly’’ into Spanish. > ‘‘Tonto/tonta’’ is the most common translation but ‘‘tonta’’ has an air of stupidity to it, a kind of denigration that just does not exist in the innocent _silly_. If someone knows a good translation, please let me know because every time I do something strange I need to know the proper way to justify it to my Spanish-speaking brethren. This extreme fault in the Spanish language has always driven me crazy. The closest equivalent I’ve found is “bobo/a,” which also means “dumb,” but in a very mild way. Also, at least in Castilian Spanish, there doesn’t seem to be a good word to equal the English “cute.” Dictionaries always translate cute as “mono,” but nobody says that. “Lindo” is the word that seems to be used in the closest context. When I would tell funny stories about my dogs, my roommate would say, “Que lindo!” ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039/32 "2008-10-03T04:32:04Z")
Ask a philosophy or classics student, someone who’s read their Plato, to define the ancient Greek words ‘logos’ and ‘arete’. You should probably only do this if you want to sit and listen to someone talk on and on and on about things that really only philosophy and classics students and their professors care about. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039/33 "2008-10-03T05:20:27Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > You might be thinking of ou/où - the first means ‘or’, the second means ‘where’. Or maybe _du_ and _dû_. The first one is an article, meaning “of the”, the second one is the past participle of _devoir_, basically “owe” or “have to”. I believe _dû_ is written with an accent specifically in order not to confuse it with the article, but I don’t see how they could be confused since they don’t have at all the same role in a sentence. I’d also like to see a sentence where both _ou_ and _où_ could be used, since they’re also two words with very different functions. I’m going to see _Le Mariage de Figaro_ this year, so I’ll try to keep this in mind. ---
**Author:** ![blinkingblinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@blinkingblinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkingblinking)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039/34 "2008-10-03T06:26:21Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > You want to go to the park? Vs. Do you want to go to the park? There are many individual words that cannot be translated. When I was in Japan talking to other English speakers they used the word ‘genki’ in English because there is no good translation. I think the best way to translate from one language to another is to think of the thought that precedes the sentence. You want to go to the park with someone. To my son who is 18 months I can use just the Cambodian word ‘tou’ which means ‘to go’. In English you can say ‘You want to go to the park?’ or ‘Do you want to go to the park?’ In Japanese you can say ‘Koen e iku ?’ ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039/35 "2008-10-03T08:18:42Z")
> [@Pyper](#): > > This extreme fault in the Spanish language has always driven me crazy. The closest equivalent I’ve found is “bobo/a,” which also means “dumb,” but in a very mild way. > > Also, at least in Castilian Spanish, there doesn’t seem to be a good word to equal the English “cute.” Dictionaries always translate cute as “mono,” but nobody says that. “Lindo” is the word that seems to be used in the closest context. When I would tell funny stories about my dogs, my roommate would say, “Que lindo!” … where was your roomie from, you say? The people I know who say “lindo” are all Latin American and everybody from Spain I know says “mono” or, especially, “mona,” a lot. Mind you, I’ve heard Americans call a car “cute,” while the only time I’d call a car “mono” is a New Beetle, in which case it’s sarcastic. I’m talking mostly NE Spain: Euskadi, Rioja, Navarra, Aragon, Catalonia, with a dose of Madrid thrown in. I hear it on Madrid-based TV a lot, too. Again, the only time I hear “lindo” on TV it’s in _culebrones_. For a story about your dog, I might say “qué mono” (if the dog is male), “qué mona” (if female) or “qué monada” (if I don’t know the gender and have no idea whether you’d take offense if I mistake it; monada can only refer to an object, in this case the story itself). And why is it an “extreme fault” of my language that you don’t know it well? Either I’m being wooshed or you have a serious problem there. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039/36 "2008-10-03T09:24:08Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > The people I know who say “lindo” are all Latin American and everybody from Spain I know says “mono” or, especially, “mona,” a lot. Colombians on the Caribbean coast use “mona/mona” in that way all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039/37 "2008-10-03T10:08:44Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > … where was your roomie from, you say? > > The people I know who say “lindo” are all Latin American and everybody from Spain I know says “mono” or, especially, “mona,” a lot. Mind you, I’ve heard Americans call a car “cute,” while the only time I’d call a car “mono” is a New Beetle, in which case it’s sarcastic. I’m talking mostly NE Spain: Euskadi, Rioja, Navarra, Aragon, Catalonia, with a dose of Madrid thrown in. I hear it on Madrid-based TV a lot, too. Again, the only time I hear “lindo” on TV it’s in _culebrones_. Say “bonito/a”, works everywhere. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039/38 "2008-10-03T10:31:58Z")
del norte? bonito del norte is a kind of tuna ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039/39 "2008-10-03T10:34:35Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > del norte? > > bonito del norte is a kind of tuna Now now… you already explained what “hacer el tonto” means. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039/40 "2008-10-03T11:19:06Z")
What can I say, Kemo Sabe, you caught me _con el dia tonto_ 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-of-the-most-frustrating-things-about-learning-another-language/466039.md?page=3)