# One public pension per person, please **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2017, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575 "2017-08-01T13:22:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/81 "2017-08-03T12:44:00Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > 30-40 years? WTF are you talking about? 😕 > > So when the public employer mandates that the employee work beyond 40 hours a week, you’re saying that pay shouldn’t be used in calculation for his pension? > > The employee has to pay extra income taxes to the state and feds, extra social security, and lose his personal time by being mandatoried to OT, but it shouldn’t increase his pension. Why do you feel that way? > > You seem to be under a delusion that it’s the employee that creates the overtime. That’s just crazy. In most cases the employee doesn’t want to work extra but has to. One of the compensations to this is an increased pension amount based on the overall salary earned. Why would you oppose that? If the employee worked that for 20 or 30 years then it would be their normal pay level. To give a lifetime benefit of a year or two of OT is ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/82 "2017-08-03T12:45:44Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > 30-40 years? WTF are you talking about? 😕 > > So when the public employer mandates that the employee work beyond 40 hours a week, you’re saying that pay shouldn’t be used in calculation for his pension? > > The employee has to pay extra income taxes to the state and feds, extra social security, and lose his personal time by being mandatoried to OT, but it shouldn’t increase his pension. Why do you feel that way? > > You seem to be under a delusion that it’s the employee that creates the overtime. That’s just crazy. In most cases the employee doesn’t want to work extra but has to. One of the compensations to this is an increased pension amount based on the overall salary earned. Why would you oppose that? The 30 or 40 years would be their retirement time. If the employee retires at 50 or 55 they will live until their 80’s or beyond. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/83 "2017-08-03T15:26:04Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > And just because there is a supervisor who approves it, that doesn’t make it right. Teaming with fellow employees to work the system makes it no less wrong. Can you accept that you’re ignorant of how it works? There is no “teaming with fellow employees”. What would happen is there would be so many sick calls on the next shift that certain areas wouldn’t be covered. The airport, courts, the jail, etc… The department could only take so many call ins without needing to keep people over. A Supervisor would put out an announcement that there were so many slots of overtime work. If nobody voluntarily took it by 30 minutes to the end of the shift, they would start manditorying people whomever was next up on the list. With the exception of my last year I never volunteered. And during that last year had I not taken the OT someone else would have been slapped with it. Either way there was overtime work. THE SYSTEM IS CREATED BY THE EMPLOYER, NOT THE EMPLOYEE! To suggest that this is somehow a scam that we created to beef up pension payments is insulting. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/84 "2017-08-03T16:50:09Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Can you accept that you’re ignorant of how it works? > > There is no “teaming with fellow employees”. > > What would happen is there would be so many sick calls on the next shift that certain areas wouldn’t be covered. The airport, courts, the jail, etc… The department could only take so many call ins without needing to keep people over. > > A Supervisor would put out an announcement that there were so many slots of overtime work. If nobody voluntarily took it by 30 minutes to the end of the shift, they would start manditorying people whomever was next up on the list. > > With the exception of my last year I never volunteered. And during that last year had I not taken the OT someone else would have been slapped with it. Either way there was overtime work. > > THE SYSTEM IS CREATED BY THE EMPLOYER, NOT THE EMPLOYEE! > > To suggest that this is somehow a scam that we created to beef up pension payments is insulting. I can accept my own ignorance, when I think I’m truly in over my head. In this discussion, I don’t think I am. CAN YOU ACCEPT THAT WHEN YOU SHOUT LIKE THIS, IT MAKES YOU LOOK AS THOUGH YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO HIDE OR THAT YOU REALIZE YOUR ARGUMENT ISN’T PERSUASIVE?? As I said above, which you chose to ignore, is if the overtime is the norm within the office, than I accept that it’s above board, it isn’t padding, and I have no issue with it. In this care, there is no insult, so no reason to get all up in arms. But if it miraculously happens in the last three years, under a “high three system” then I have issue with it. The system is created by the employer, but the mechanics of it are not always managed by the employer, but by a supervisor who isn’t in that level of management. If it’s a supervisor that is also a union employee, they will know how the system works and may well take care of you. A supervisor who also may well benefit from the same circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/85 "2017-08-03T16:56:36Z")
If the overtime is forced by the dept, then it still artificially inflates pensions for some people and it wastes money by paying a higher wage on top of it. It is still a scam and a poor way to take care of the public. Congrats you got it through an unethical way of staffing. ---
**Author:** ![Oddball\_92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b3f665/32.png) [@Oddball\_92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oddball_92)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/86 "2017-08-03T22:50:54Z")
So here’s a guy who worked for a big city fire department for 35 years, receiving a pension of 50% of his salary. For 22 of those years he also worked part-time for a county as a fire inspector/arson investigator. He retired from the county and received a pension based on his salary. (the amount was based on his part time status). These two agencies were not connected. Including both jobs he worked an average of 72 hrs a week. He deserves two pensions. He worked the hrs. Why would anyone say he doesn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/87 "2017-08-03T23:26:04Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > If the overtime is forced by the dept, then it still artificially inflates pensions for some people and it wastes money by paying a higher wage on top of it. It is still a scam and a poor way to take care of the public. Congrats you got it through an unethical way of staffing. It’s been mentioned that OT is usually cheaper than hiring extra people. Yes, each hour of OT is more expensive, but you don’t have the added overhead of managing another person nor the expense of additional benefits. And you know that if they hired more people and then didn’t need to use all of them all the time, there would be complaints. Safer to err on the side of not quite enough people and hope they stay healthy. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/88 "2017-08-04T01:03:55Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > It’s been mentioned that OT is usually cheaper than hiring extra people. Yes, each hour of OT is more expensive, but you don’t have the added overhead of managing another person nor the expense of additional benefits. > > And you know that if they hired more people and then didn’t need to use all of them all the time, there would be complaints. Safer to err on the side of not quite enough people and hope they stay healthy. I would agree if the overtime is periodic and limited. Once you have people doing mandatory 20+ hours per week every week, there is a staffing issue that needs to be addressed. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/89 "2017-08-04T01:09:09Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > I would agree if the overtime is periodic and limited. Once you have people doing mandatory 20+ hours per week every week, there is a staffing issue that needs to be addressed. Can’t say I disagree. I also don’t want police and fire fighters being pressured to not take reasonable vacations. Stressed and tired safety workers are not a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/90 "2017-08-04T14:39:56Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > It’s been mentioned that OT is usually cheaper than hiring extra people. Yes, each hour of OT is more expensive, but you don’t have the added overhead of managing another person nor the expense of additional benefits. > > And you know that if they hired more people and then didn’t need to use all of them all the time, there would be complaints. Safer to err on the side of not quite enough people and hope they stay healthy. I am probably in the minority on this, but I don’t mind paying officers well. I think that they should get a very good paycheck for working 40, maybe as much as 48 hours a week on 8 hour shifts. paying them kinda crap, and making them have to work 60 hours a week in order to make ends meet is not really respecting the officers, and it is a danger to the public because you have tired and overworked officers being required to make instantaneous life and death decisions. You also have overworked officers who make poor judgments, and take the stress of their job out on the people in their community. I have voted yes on every single police levy I have ever had a chance to vote on. I support the police, and want them to make good money in a safe job. It is the people who don’t want to pay taxes for their community services that complain that the police make too much, or that we’re paying for too many officers. They vote against the levies that would give the police better training and equipment to keep their community safer. These people who vote against the police can usually be grouped in the same Venn diagram as those who talk about “Law and Order”, and become supportive of the police when they kill or abuse a civilian. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/91 "2017-08-04T15:16:29Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > If the overtime is forced by the dept, then it still artificially inflates pensions for some people and it wastes money by paying a higher wage on top of it. It is actually cheaper to the tax payer to do it this way. The health insurance benefit alone was $36K/year. Add to that the cost of workmans comp insurance, liability insurance, unemployment insurance, training, equipment, etc, and the cost of hiring significantly more staff far outweighs the cost of overtime and pension payouts. When you have hundreds or even thousands of employees you are going to have sick calls, people out on injury, vacation, comp days, etc… when that agency provides essential services _somebody_ has to fill in the void. Economically it is usually better to use OT than hire more staff. But you are ignorant of the numbers and, per your previous posts, are using this thread as a form of cop bashing. Had I said I was a custodian working at a county social services office getting the same pension deal I’m guessing you wouldn’t be having a cow. And like I posted before, David Clarke took “doing more with less” to a ridiculous extreme. But that s not the fault of Deps who got nailed with massive overtime. Are you aware that about 6 years ago Milwaukee County actually laid off over 50 Deputies? It was cheaper to pay out unemployment and OT w/increased pensions than it was to hire more Deputies. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/92 "2017-08-04T16:38:46Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > It is actually cheaper to the tax payer to do it this way. The health insurance benefit alone was $36K/year. Add to that the cost of workmans comp insurance, liability insurance, unemployment insurance, training, equipment, etc, and the cost of hiring significantly more staff far outweighs the cost of overtime and pension payouts. > > When you have hundreds or even thousands of employees you are going to have sick calls, people out on injury, vacation, comp days, etc… when that agency provides essential services _somebody_ has to fill in the void. Economically it is usually better to use OT than hire more staff. But you are ignorant of the numbers and, per your previous posts, are using this thread as a form of cop bashing. Had I said I was a custodian working at a county social services office getting the same pension deal I’m guessing you wouldn’t be having a cow. > And like I posted before, David Clarke took “doing more with less” to a ridiculous extreme. But that s not the fault of Deps who got nailed with massive overtime. Are you aware that about 6 years ago Milwaukee County actually laid off over 50 Deputies? > It was cheaper to pay out unemployment and OT w/increased pensions than it was to hire more Deputies. I don’t want my police force on the cheap, I want it well reqruited, well trained, and well rested and up for the job. Sure, some OT is always going to be necessary, as more people than expected call off or large events require thickening the schedule. But 12 hour shifts and 64+ hour weeks, week after week, that’s not good. You start to make mistakes. When cops make mistakes, people can get hurt. If you were a custodian, I would still be concerned about the type of hours you are working. I would not be as concerned about the effects of what your exhaustion may have upon your job, as custodians are not often in charge of life and death decisions, but I would still be concerned about the health (both physical and mental) of the worker. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/93 "2017-08-04T18:30:52Z")
I love this. People bitching about other people working hard to earn something. Worse than people bitching about not making enough money at their current entry-level job are those bitching about hard-working earners who enjoy the pensions to which they are entitled. In about 5 years I will be collecting a pension of 50% base pay for life. I’ll only be in my low 40s, so the chance of me starting another career is 100%. The chance of that career being in the public domain is also quite high. I will possibly be collecting two government pensions when I am just over 60. I never would have suspected that anyone would actually have a problem with that. So we’re not concerned with welfare recipients or other people who are getting money from the government without ever working for it or otherwise earning it, huh? We are pissed at the people who work? GTFO ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/94 "2017-08-04T21:46:56Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > It is actually cheaper to the tax payer to do it this way. The health insurance benefit alone was $36K/year. Add to that the cost of workmans comp insurance, liability insurance, unemployment insurance, training, equipment, etc, and the cost of hiring significantly more staff far outweighs the cost of overtime and pension payouts. > > When you have hundreds or even thousands of employees you are going to have sick calls, people out on injury, vacation, comp days, etc… when that agency provides essential services _somebody_ has to fill in the void. Economically it is usually better to use OT than hire more staff. But you are ignorant of the numbers and, per your previous posts, are using this thread as a form of cop bashing. Had I said I was a custodian working at a county social services office getting the same pension deal I’m guessing you wouldn’t be having a cow. > And like I posted before, David Clarke took “doing more with less” to a ridiculous extreme. But that s not the fault of Deps who got nailed with massive overtime. Are you aware that about 6 years ago Milwaukee County actually laid off over 50 Deputies? > It was cheaper to pay out unemployment and OT w/increased pensions than it was to hire more Deputies. Thank you for calling me ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2017, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/95 "2017-08-04T21:53:46Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I don’t want my police force on the cheap, I want it well reqruited, well trained, and well rested and up for the job. > > Sure, some OT is always going to be necessary, as more people than expected call off or large events require thickening the schedule. > > But 12 hour shifts and 64+ hour weeks, week after week, that’s not good. You start to make mistakes. When cops make mistakes, people can get hurt. > > If you were a custodian, I would still be concerned about the type of hours you are working. I would not be as concerned about the effects of what your exhaustion may have upon your job, as custodians are not often in charge of life and death decisions, but I would still be concerned about the health (both physical and mental) of the worker. This exactly!! ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/96 "2017-08-05T01:17:06Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > Thank you for calling me ignorant. That’s not what was said. " . . .ignorant of the numbers . . ." simply means you don’t have a specific piece of information. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/97 "2017-08-05T01:37:50Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > That’s not what was said. " . . .ignorant of the numbers . . ." simply means you don’t have a specific piece of information. Thanks for the clarification. I wouldn’t think a humble public servant would be demeaning to a regular citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/98 "2017-08-05T04:29:02Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If you had a private employer with a SIMPLE IRA, another employer with a 401k, and still another employer who provided a completely different retirement benefit, do you feel that you should be required to choose just one of those, perhaps with that employer being required to pick up the entire tab? > > If your complaint is that pensions are too generous, let’s look at numbers and compare the retirement benefit accrued for similar professionals in the private market. You may end up finding that the pension is overly generous, and could be reduced a bit in the future. You will probably, however, find that the private sector is much more generous in its retirement benefits for a similar employee performing similar job functions. Could you please expound on this final sentiment for me? In my experience, private sector pension plans are almost always structured around self-funded 401(k)'s with the possibility of the employer matching some percentage of your contribution. Am I reading your suggestion correctly that this is more generous than the typical public pension plan, which guarantees benefits for some prescribed term of service? I could work at Exxon for 30 years, but I won’t get any pension if I didn’t dedicate my own money into their 401(k) plan. Seems the public plans are considerably more generous than anything I have seen in the private market. Along those lines: aren’t public pension plans typically investing in the same basic mutual funds that I would be in a 401(k)? If they underperform my Vanguard Target Fund that’s a simple indictment of the entire public pension structure. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/99 "2017-08-05T04:44:56Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > The system is created by the employer, but the mechanics of it are not always managed by the employer, but by a supervisor who isn’t in that level of management. If it’s a supervisor that is also a union employee, they will know how the system works and may well take care of you. A supervisor who also may well benefit from the same circumstances. No. And I’m speaking here as somebody who was part of the system. The main reason people got overtime was because we had a needed position and nobody to fill it. Nobody was gaming the system. Having to work involuntary overtime was known as getting stuck, which is an indication of how unpopular it was. To the extent that people were gaming the system, they were doing it to avoid working overtime. You’d have people offer money to other employees to get them to work their overtime so they could go home. Now there were people who wanted overtime. And what they would generally do is place a bid on a trip officer job. These were the guys who transported prisoners around the state to things like court appearances or medical appointments. Because of all the traveling they did, they rarely finished their shift in eight hours and would accumulate a lot of overtime. But nobody was fixing things to give them overtime. It was just the nature of the job. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/100 "2017-08-05T06:17:46Z")
There are other things that pay more other than overtime. Holidays, for instance. A public employee working a holiday (at least around here. YMMV) that falls on a day they regularly would work anyway gets time and a half for working on a holiday, and either 8 hours comp time (time off @ regular pay) or can take the hours right away on their next check. That means if the employee takes all the pay rather than the comp time they’ll get 20 hours of pay (8X1.5+8) for doing only 8 hours work. All of that would be included in calculating pension payouts. At 12 paid holidays per year that’s 144 hours per year calculated into a pension payout that were never actually worked. in a 30 year career that alone is an additional 2 years of pay from hours that weren’t actually worked. This is standard practice in many government jobs and it’s established by the employer. In my state the union has little say anymore. Yet I eagerly await **CopBasher** to post that it’s somehow a scam set up by police to game the system. But this type of thing is also done at county hospitals, the fish hatchery, the zoo, ect… The other thing people are ignorant of is that public employees pay towards their pension fund. It’s 6% of pretax pay goes towards their pension (this is separate from the 403 or 453 deferred compensation plans). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575.md?page=6)