# One public pension per person, please **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2017, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575 "2017-08-01T13:22:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/101 "2017-08-05T14:15:03Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > There are other things that pay more other than overtime. > > Holidays, for instance. A public employee working a holiday (at least around here. YMMV) that falls on a day they regularly would work anyway gets time and a half for working on a holiday, and either 8 hours comp time (time off @ regular pay) or can take the hours right away on their next check. > > That means if the employee takes all the pay rather than the comp time they’ll get 20 hours of pay (8X1.5+8) for doing only 8 hours work. All of that would be included in calculating pension payouts. > > At 12 paid holidays per year that’s 144 hours per year calculated into a pension payout that were never actually worked. in a 30 year career that alone is an additional 2 years of pay from hours that weren’t actually worked. > > This is standard practice in many government jobs and it’s established by the employer. In my state the union has little say anymore. Yet I eagerly await **CopBasher** to post that it’s somehow a scam set up by police to game the system. But this type of thing is also done at county hospitals, the fish hatchery, the zoo, ect… > > The other thing people are ignorant of is that public employees pay towards their pension fund. It’s 6% of pretax pay goes towards their pension (this is separate from the 403 or 453 deferred compensation plans). CopBasher is a great name. Congrats to you and the rest of the pigs who have sucked on the teets of society to become entitled to everything you have received. Enjoy your pension, retirement, or second career to receive another pension while taking a job from someone else. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/102 "2017-08-05T14:20:09Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > The other thing people are ignorant of is that public employees pay towards their pension fund. It’s 6% of pretax pay goes towards their pension (this is separate from the 403 or 453 deferred compensation plans). Like with anything else regarding government in the US , it depends. You paid six percent towards your pension. I paid three percent- until my tier was improved, and then only people with less than ten years of service paid anything. **spifflog** , in my experience, when people are talking about gaming the system, they aren’t talking about people making up “overtime” out of thin air. They are talking about certain people being assigned to work necessary overtime which will then increase their pensions etc. Thing is , various rules intersect to make it almost impossible to avoid doing this. For example, my pension is based on the highest consecutive three years, not the last three years. They are often the same, but not always. There’s no way for a manager to know which employee is currently in those three years. Even the employee might not realize the current year will be one of their three highest years. There may also be rules that state , for example, that overtime must first be offered to those with the most seniority. Even in the absence of such a rule, it’s difficult in many cases for a manager to insist that one person work overtime involuntarily when someone else is standing right there volunteering \*. Which sometimes means that overtime cannot be spread around more evenly in a less expensive way -it’s often less expensive to pay 20 people 2 hours overtime each than to pay the most senior person 40 hours of overtime. In fact, in my case the first is _always_ less expensive as our normal workweek is 37.5 hours and the first 2.5 hours of overtime is comp time, not cash. - Sometimes overtime must be worked by a particular person , such as testifying in a court hearing that runs past the end of a normal workday. Other times it’s more expedient to have the person who started the task finish it. But there are lots of times when it doesn’t really matter who works the overtime. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/103 "2017-08-05T15:53:33Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Could you please expound on this final sentiment for me? In my experience, private sector pension plans are almost always structured around self-funded 401(k)'s with the possibility of the employer matching some percentage of your contribution. > > Am I reading your suggestion correctly that this is more generous than the typical public pension plan, which guarantees benefits for some prescribed term of service? I could work at Exxon for 30 years, but I won’t get any pension if I didn’t dedicate my own money into their 401(k) plan. Seems the public plans are considerably more generous than anything I have seen in the private market. > > Along those lines: aren’t public pension plans typically investing in the same basic mutual funds that I would be in a 401(k)? If they underperform my Vanguard Target Fund that’s a simple indictment of the entire public pension structure. Until fairly recently, most private sector retirements have been structured around pension plans. Look to ford, or delta, or any of the other blue collar jobs for examples of very generous pensions in the private market. Now, these pensions aren’t offered any more, and these jobs aren’t really hiring all that much any more, but yeah, if you were a factory employee for ford or delta in the 90’s, your pension plan was better than most public pension plans. As far as now goes, 401k’s are common, but I don’t know about your “possibility” part, as in order to have a plan at all, I have to match my employees’ contribution up to 1.5%. That’s a SIMPLE IRA, which may have different employer requirements than a 401k, but I’ve worked quite a number of jobs, and all of them that offered a 401k also matched to at least the 1.5% level, many up to 5%. Most public pension plans I am aware of do require the employee to contribute to them, and most of the time, that’s involuntary. With a 401k, you can choose whether or not to participate, and at what level, with pensions, you pretty much just need to pay into it as a condition of your job. The total compensation for a private worker is higher than that of a public sector worker for the same amount of experience and qualifications. That the private employee with a 401k has more control over how much they put into their retirement plan, including putting away nothing at all, does not make the public plan more generous. And that is for employee and low to mid level manager level jobs. Show me any govt jobs that come with the sorts of golden parachutes that executives get in large corporations. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/104 "2017-08-05T16:11:08Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > CopBasher is a great name. Congrats to you and the rest of the pigs who have sucked on the teets of society to become entitled to everything you have received. Enjoy your pension, retirement, or second career to receive another pension while taking a job from someone else. At one time I had a job in the private sector that had a standard pension (this was before the establishment of the 401K). The pension was calculated the same exact way. I did not stay the 10 years to get vested in it, however. I don’t recall seeing you on here endorsing Governor Walker pushing Act 10 which mandated public employees paying for their pensions and health care. There were a lot of folks on these boards howling about it. Yet I, as a public employee, did not have a problem with paying towards my benefits like everyone else has to. Where were my accolades from you? And why aren’t you on here screaming about librarians, street sweepers, zoo keepers, etc.? All public employees. You are aware that there are numerous openings in my field that they cannot fill. I’m taking a job from nobody. > [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > I love this. People bitching about other people working hard to earn something. Worse than people bitching about not making enough money at their current entry-level job are those bitching about hard-working earners who enjoy the pensions to which they are entitled. > In about 5 years I will be collecting a pension of 50% base pay for life. I’ll only be in my low 40s, so the chance of me starting another career is 100%. The chance of that career being in the public domain is also quite high. I will possibly be collecting two government pensions when I am just over 60. > I never would have suspected that anyone would actually have a problem with that. So we’re not concerned with welfare recipients or other people who are getting money from the government without ever working for it or otherwise earning it, huh? We are pissed at the people who work? GTFO 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/105 "2017-08-05T16:43:44Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Until fairly recently, most private sector retirements have been structured around pension plans. Look to ford, or delta, or any of the other blue collar jobs for examples of very generous pensions in the private market. Now, these pensions aren’t offered any more, and these jobs aren’t really hiring all that much any more, but yeah, if you were a factory employee for ford or delta in the 90’s, your pension plan was better than most public pension plans. Those pensions may have been more generous than some public pension plans, but if there was ever a time when most people were covered by them, it was well before the '90s. In 1990, fewer than half of private sector employees were covered by [defined benefit plans](https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/cwc/percent-of-private-industry-workers-participating-in-retirement-plans-selected-periods-1990-2003.pdf) which is what is normally meant by “pension plan”. I think you may be forgetting about the many people who did not work for large or unionized employers who were always the most likely to have a defined benefit plan. > [@](#): > > As far as now goes, 401k’s are common, but I don’t know about your “possibility” part, as in order to have a plan at all, I have to match my employees’ contribution up to 1.5%. That’s a SIMPLE IRA, which may have different employer requirements than a 401k, but I’ve worked quite a number of jobs, and all of them that offered a 401k also matched to at least the 1.5% level, many up to 5%. There’s no requirement that an employer match contributions to a 401K, or even that an employer offer a 401K at all. My husband’s employers have never matched his 401K contributions.There’s a reason traditional IRAs still exist. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/106 "2017-08-05T16:45:23Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > At one time I had a job in the private sector that had a standard pension (this was before the establishment of the 401K). The pension was calculated the same exact way. I did not stay the 10 years to get vested in it, however. > > I don’t recall seeing you on here endorsing Governor Walker pushing Act 10 which mandated public employees paying for their pensions and health care. There were a lot of folks on these boards howling about it. Yet I, as a public employee, did not have a problem with paying towards my benefits like everyone else has to. Where were my accolades from you? And why aren’t you on here screaming about librarians, street sweepers, zoo keepers, etc.? All public employees. > > You are aware that there are numerous openings in my field that they cannot fill. I’m taking a job from nobody. > > 🙂 The only reason it is directed at cops is that you are the one who responded to the thread. I have an issue with all public employees jerking the system and padding their OT and retirement. Overall I do not have an issue with cops. I actually have a few in my family. The system is completely broken and police gets the most press due to the life and death nature of it. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/107 "2017-08-05T19:42:39Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Those pensions may have been more generous than some public pension plans, but if there was ever a time when most people were covered by them, it was well before the '90s. In 1990, fewer than half of private sector employees were covered by [defined benefit plans](https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/cwc/percent-of-private-industry-workers-participating-in-retirement-plans-selected-periods-1990-2003.pdf) which is what is normally meant by “pension plan”. I think you may be forgetting about the many people who did not work for large or unionized employers who were always the most likely to have a defined benefit plan. I’m relatively new to the workforce and I haven’t even heard of a defined benefit plan being offered by any company. As I understand it, they were odiously expensive and nearly all private companies switched to defined-contribution plans like 401(k)s. Which is why I’m questioning this assertion that private pension plans are more generous than public pension plans. They don’t even exist anymore as far as I can tell, and a 401(k), even with a matching contribution, is significantly less generous than the defined-benefit plans public sector employees enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/108 "2017-08-05T20:58:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No. And I’m speaking here as somebody who was part of the system. The main reason people got overtime was because we had a needed position and nobody to fill it. Nobody was gaming the system. Having to work involuntary overtime was known as getting stuck, which is an indication of how unpopular it was. To the extent that people were gaming the system, they were doing it to avoid working overtime. You’d have people offer money to other employees to get them to work their overtime so they could go home. > > Now there were people who wanted overtime. And what they would generally do is place a bid on a trip officer job. These were the guys who transported prisoners around the state to things like court appearances or medical appointments. Because of all the traveling they did, they rarely finished their shift in eight hours and would accumulate a lot of overtime. But nobody was fixing things to give them overtime. It was just the nature of the job. As someone pointed out earlier, “it depends.” My brother retired from a state job recently. It was a state that based retirement on the high 3 years. He would ask for overtime early on when he first had his kids and would only get in when “the old timers” didn’t want it. When he was in the three year window prior to retirement, he was “a retirement guy” and was first in line to get the overtime, largely to bump up his retirement. In the military when I first came in, retirement pay was based on the final paycheck. In my first shore job I worked in the orders writing branch. The vast majority of the guys retiring received orders right after a time in service bump or after the first of the year increase. For many, they only received one paycheck at that higher amount, but their retirement check was based on that one check. Everyone knew what the deal was. In both these cases, “management” wasn’t the governor of the state or the president, but fellow workers, who while senior were still invested in taking care of their peers and were in a position to do so. I’m not saying that all overtime is padding. But to say it doesn’t happen because “management” wouldn’t allow it or that there’s no other way around in all cases is disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/109 "2017-08-05T21:22:09Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > CopBasher is a great name. Congrats to you and the rest of the pigs who have sucked on the teets of society to become entitled to everything you have received. Enjoy your pension, retirement, or second career to receive another pension while taking a job from someone else. Dial it back. If you are calling a police officer a pig that is not okay. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/110 "2017-08-05T22:48:29Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Dial it back. If you are calling a police officer a pig that is not okay. > > [/moderating] So he can attack me and it is ok? ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/111 "2017-08-05T22:51:00Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Dial it back. If you are calling a police officer a pig that is not okay. > > [/moderating] I’m referring to all civil servant s that are bankrupting City and state government from the politicians on down. They only care about themself and not the people they are supposed to be serving and representing. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/112 "2017-08-05T22:52:37Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > The only reason it is directed at cops is that you are the one who responded to the thread. I have an issue with all public employees jerking the system and padding their OT and retirement. Overall I do not have an issue with cops. I actually have a few in my family. The system is completely broken and police gets the most press due to the life and death nature of it. **Bone** [ see above you didn’t read far enough. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/113 "2017-08-05T22:55:30Z")
I know very few who become firefighters or policemen because they don’t care about the communities they serve. I don’t think your characterization is productive to the discussion, especially since the exorbitant pension plans that are putting a fiscal strain on states and municipalities weren’t concocted by the average public servant but instead by their union bosses in negotiations with local politicians. It doesn’t mean the problem doesn’t exist, but rather that we shouldn’t demonize public servants for a problem they didn’t themselves create. ---
**Author:** ![UCBearcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/77aa72/32.png) [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/114 "2017-08-05T22:58:38Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I know very few who become firefighters or policemen because they don’t care about the communities they serve. I don’t think your characterization is productive to the discussion, especially since the exorbitant pension plans that are putting a fiscal strain on states and municipalities weren’t concocted by the average public servant but instead by their union bosses in negotiations with local politicians. > > It doesn’t mean the problem doesn’t exist, but rather that we shouldn’t demonize public servants for a problem they didn’t themselves create. They aren’t telling their union bosses they want to fix the issue, so they are still part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/115 "2017-08-05T23:00:33Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > **Bone** [ see above you didn’t read far enough. I did. Take any desired discussion of this to ATMB. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/116 "2017-08-05T23:03:38Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I know very few who become firefighters or policemen because they don’t care about the communities they serve. I don’t think your characterization is productive to the discussion, especially since the exorbitant pension plans that are putting a fiscal strain on states and municipalities weren’t concocted by the average public servant but instead by their union bosses in negotiations with local politicians. > > It doesn’t mean the problem doesn’t exist, but rather that we shouldn’t demonize public servants for a problem they didn’t themselves create. I was a volunteer fireman for nearly 20 years and a deputy sheriff for about 10. The number one reason I encountered for people becoming firemen or LE was that they thought it would be more exciting than a “regular” job. Following family into it was also pretty common. Knew a bunch of LE who went into it from the military because it seemed like a similar type of job. Never met even a single one who did it because they “cared about the community.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/117 "2017-08-06T03:06:20Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Yet I eagerly await **CopBasher** to post . . . UCBearcat has not been Warned for the overreaction, so you will not receive a Warning, but this sort of name calling is also against the rules. Do not do this again. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575/118 "2017-08-06T17:39:18Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > . . . the exorbitant pension plans that are putting a fiscal strain on states and municipalities weren’t concocted by the average public servant but instead by their union bosses in negotiations with local politicians. . . . . One problem is creep. It’s really hard to reduce benefits once people are used to them. And if a city or state has, say, five years where times are good and their coffers are flush, there’s less incentive to hold the line on the political side, and a resentment for not sharing the wealth on the union side. In Stockton, the city pays into CalPERS. So pensions don’t come out of city funds. The big mistake Stockton made was promising medical coverage to retirees without pre-paying accounts. That built up badly and then had to be cut off. I think that now new employees pay into a retirement medical account and old employees/prior retirees are allowed to buy into the employee group coverage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-public-pension-per-person-please/792575.md?page=5)