# one small goose-step closer to thirteen o'clock **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080 "2018-03-23T16:34:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/81 "2018-03-25T19:39:03Z")
This calls for public shunning, rotten eggs, tomatoes and a boycott of his act. Not jail time. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/82 "2018-03-26T00:35:12Z")
> [@Jake\_Bullet\_Traffic\_Control](#): > > You dismissed the pug case as trifling shit. It may well seem that way, compared to problems you have in America, but in the UK we don’t have those same problems, so it’s not such a trifling issue. Huh? You in the UK have different problems, but are you seriously implying this pug case is a significant problem compared to Brexit, anti-immigration racism, Russians assassinating folks in your country, and so on and so forth? Your clarification leaves me even more bewildered as to what the hell you’re getting at. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/83 "2018-03-26T12:28:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m willing to give you three minutes, though. > [First page of this thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=850934) has five or six different board conservatives (depending on how you count them) complaining about the suppression of speech by left-wing college folks. You wanna find me two or three examples of conservatives on this board complaining about speech suppression from police and/or right-wing sources? > > Or you wanna go to another source, say, Fox News or Breitbart, and find me similar complaints, and I’ll match you two for one there as well. > > Again, though, I don’t think you actually doubt the claim. Ball’s in your court. > > Edit: [go here](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=779048&), [here](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=827560), and [here](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=830831) for some more examples of right-wing board members complaining about leftists on campuses suppressing speech; these are where I’ll draw more examples from, on the off-chance you can dig up even two examples of conservative board members complaining about speech suppression from the right. And there are a ton more where those came from. Sorry, but no. You claimed > [@](#): > > it’s blatantly clear that the free speech violations that the right complain about are overwhelmingly, on this board and on Fox News both, trifling shit like this pug case, instead of serious governmental overreaches like the UNC case or the cops-beating-up-mouthy-civilian cases. You need to show the overwhelming predominance of such complaints here and on Fox News are as you describe. You also need to show that objecting to violence on campus and silencing speakers there is “trifling”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/84 "2018-03-26T12:31:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Sorry, but no. > > You claimed You need to show the overwhelming predominance of such complaints here and on Fox News are as you describe. You also need to show that objecting to violence on campus and silencing speakers there is “trifling”. > > Regards, > Shodan Cool, dude. I don’t think you genuinely doubt what I said, and if you somehow do, I don’t think you’re persuadable by any means within the reach of a person without two weeks and a professional staff of assistants, so we’re basically done with this. Whatever victory you need to claim, go ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/85 "2018-03-26T13:34:49Z")
You take a lot of words to say “I got nothing”. Maybe this comedian will teach the dog to sit up and beg, and then he can be prosecuted for non-consensual BDSM. “What do you mean Heil - I thought you said Heel!” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/86 "2018-03-26T13:43:33Z")
Cops beating people up because they mouth off isn’t backed up by courts or the public. You don’t get charged with insubordination, sedition, being grossly offensive, “hate speech” or whatever clever terminology you can come up with when you mouth off to a police officer. A cop who cites a guy for an offense he would let another more polite person get away with isn’t a free speech violation. Your analogy fails **LHOD**. ---
**Author:** ![Jake\_Bullet\_Traffic\_Control](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3da27b/32.png) [@Jake\_Bullet\_Traffic\_Control](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake_Bullet_Traffic_Control)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/87 "2018-03-26T16:37:33Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Huh? You in the UK have different problems, but are you seriously implying this pug case is a significant problem compared to Brexit, anti-immigration racism, Russians assassinating folks in your country, and so on and so forth? > > Your clarification leaves me even more bewildered as to what the hell you’re getting at. No. I’m saying it’s a serious free speech problem for the UK. As far as free speech in the UK is concerned, this case isn’t trifling shit. It actually sets a very troubling precedent. None of the other stuff you mentioned has anything to do with free speech in the UK so it’s not relevant. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/88 "2018-03-26T18:06:36Z")
> [@Jake\_Bullet\_Traffic\_Control](#): > > No. I’m saying it’s a serious free speech problem for the UK. As far as free speech in the UK is concerned, this case isn’t trifling shit. It actually sets a very troubling precedent. None of the other stuff you mentioned has anything to do with free speech in the UK so it’s not relevant. So what American problems were you talking about in this post? > [@Jake\_Bullet\_Traffic\_Control](#): > > You dismissed the pug case as trifling shit. It may well seem that way, compared to problems you have in America, but in the UK we don’t have those same problems, so it’s not such a trifling issue. Also, as i said, no-one has said that the case itself is a trifling issue; we have been discussing it precisely because free speech is an important issue. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/89 "2018-03-26T19:29:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > you’re thinking that you’ll respond to my obvious disdain for your demand by saying, “Yup, that’s what I thought, you got nuthin.” > [@Shodan](#): > > You take a lot of words to say “I got nothing”. I love it when a prediction comes together! 🙂 > [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > Cops beating people up because they mouth off isn’t backed up by courts or the public. You don’t get charged with insubordination, sedition, being grossly offensive, “hate speech” or whatever clever terminology you can come up with when you mouth off to a police officer. A cop who cites a guy for an offense he would let another more polite person get away with isn’t a free speech violation. Your analogy fails **LHOD**. This is yet another non sequitur. Sure, a cop beating someone up for mouthing off isn’t “backed up by the courts,” but it’s a government action that stifles speech, and is a far more serious problem, and a far more serious consequence for speech, than getting hauled before a court for teaching a pug to be a Nazi. Is this case some trivial shit? I’m not entirely sure. If, as I suspect, this dude gets off with a warning or a dozen hours of community service or something, I really am not too upset over it. I mean, it’s a bad law, or a bad decision based on a mediocre law, but it’s not “goose-stepping toward thirteen o’clock” or anything. If he spends time in jail? Okay, then we’re talking about something worse. (edit: I did, above, refer to this case as “trifling shit,” so **mhendo** , at least someone in this thread did!) All the same, I’m a lot more concerned over [police abusing their power](https://www.citylab.com/equity/2015/07/everyone-has-the-right-to-mouth-off-to-cops/399548/) to harass, arrest, or beat down people who are rude to them. That, in my opinion, is a much more serious abuse of government power than is charging the doofus who teaches a pug to be a Nazi. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/90 "2018-03-26T19:57:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > All the same, I’m a lot more concerned over [police abusing their power](https://www.citylab.com/equity/2015/07/everyone-has-the-right-to-mouth-off-to-cops/399548/) to harass, arrest, or beat down people who are rude to them. That, in my opinion, is a much more serious abuse of government power than is charging the doofus who teaches a pug to be a Nazi. Here i’m going to disagree with you. I’m not disagreeing with your opinion of police who “harass, arrest, or beat down people who are rude to them.” I completely agree that this is a serious breach of their duty to the public. But the reason for my disagreement is right their in your post: abusing their power. In most cases, if a cop harasses, arrests, or beats down someone who is rude to them, they are, in fact, violating department policies and violating the law. It might be that they are not always called to account, and it might be that the punishment they get is often a slap on the wrist, like a paid suspension. But the fact is that the law itself does not support or condone or allow the practice of harassing, arresting, or beating civilians just for being rude. By contrast, the arrest and prosecution in this thread were well within the boundaries prescribed by British law. That is, in fact, what makes this case so important: that the law itself is so bad. Yes, it might be worse to be beaten or harassed by a cop for being rude if you are the person being beaten or harassed. And we need to do everything possible to hold accountable cops who abuse their power. But i think that laws like this one, which compromise and constrain basic rights with little or no valid justification, are just as serious and just as problematic. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/91 "2018-03-26T20:17:59Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Here i’m going to disagree with you. > > I’m not disagreeing with your opinion of police who “harass, arrest, or beat down people who are rude to them.” I completely agree that this is a serious breach of their duty to the public. > > But the reason for my disagreement is right their in your post: abusing their power. > > In most cases, if a cop harasses, arrests, or beats down someone who is rude to them, they are, in fact, violating department policies and violating the law. It might be that they are not always called to account, and it might be that the punishment they get is often a slap on the wrist, like a paid suspension. > > But the fact is that the law itself does not support or condone or allow the practice of harassing, arresting, or beating civilians just for being rude. By contrast, the arrest and prosecution in this thread were well within the boundaries prescribed by British law. That is, in fact, what makes this case so important: that the law itself is so bad. There are some semantics going on here, but ultimately the state is what the state does, not what the state says it does; and an abuse of power by an agent of the state has the same effect on the victim whether it’s in accordance with or in contrast to what the state says it’ll do. So I don’t agree that this case is somehow more important. On the contrary, because this case represents people constraining themselves according to democratic structures, it’s even less bad. If the populace as a whole wants this state behavior changed, it’s an easy fix to change it. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/92 "2018-03-26T20:28:14Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There are some semantics going on here, but ultimately the state is what the state does, not what the state says it does; and an abuse of power by an agent of the state has the same effect on the victim whether it’s in accordance with or in contrast to what the state says it’ll do. While the semantics might not matter to the victim at the time, they matter in principle, and in terms of redress. When the state sanctions a law that violates fundamental freedoms, like freedom of speech, it’s a major fucking problem. This guy can go to prison for posting a video. If you don’t think that’s serious, then we really have nothing more to discuss. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So I don’t agree that this case is somehow more important. On the contrary, because this case represents people constraining themselves according to democratic structures, it’s even less bad. If the populace as a whole wants this state behavior changed, it’s an easy fix to change it. I’d be interested to know whether you would apply this principle to all laws. Were Jim Crow laws “less bad” because they were democratically supported by the people in the states that passed them? Were anti-gay laws OK because, for a long time, they were supported by a numerical majority of the people? After all, those laws simply required racial minorities and LGBT folks to “constrain themselves according to democratic structures.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/93 "2018-03-26T20:32:32Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > While the semantics might not matter to the victim at the time, they matter in principle, and in terms of redress. When the state sanctions a law that violates fundamental freedoms, like freedom of speech, it’s a major fucking problem. This guy can go to prison for posting a video. If you don’t think that’s serious, then we really have nothing more to discuss. If he goes to prison for it, I’ll think it’s serious. I am, in this case and in all cases, concerned about what actually happens. > [@](#): > > I’d be interested to know whether you would apply this principle to all laws. Were Jim Crow laws “less bad” because they were democratically supported by the people in the states that passed them? Yes, it applies. Jim Crow laws, democratically passed, were less bad than racist extrajudicial police actions. Both were shitty, but the latter–all else being equal–were shittier. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/94 "2018-03-26T20:37:49Z")
So if the legislature passed a law allowing police to harass, arrest, or beat down someone who is rude to them, this would be better, in your estimation, than a situation where police are not allowed to do these things, but where **some** police do these things in violation of the law? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/95 "2018-03-26T20:44:27Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > So if the legislature passed a law allowing police to harass, arrest, or beat down someone who is rude to them, this would be better, in your estimation, than a situation where police are not allowed to do these things, but where **some** police do these things in violation of the law? You’re really reaching here, and ignoring what I said: I’m interested in what actually happens. Situation A: Three people a week are getting beaten by the cops. It’s happening despite a law that prevents it, and there appears to be no effort within the government to stop it. Situation B: Three people a week are getting beaten by the cops. It’s happening because there’s a law that allows it, and there appears to be no effort within the government to stop it. Situation B is a better situation than situation A, because it’s easier for the public to do something about it. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/96 "2018-03-27T11:02:36Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But the fact is that the law itself does not support or condone or allow the practice of harassing, arresting, or beating civilians just for being rude. By contrast, the arrest and prosecution in this thread were well within the boundaries prescribed by British law. . I like the way you put “harassing, arresting, or beating civilians” all together like they are the same thing. Do you think police should not be allowed to arrest anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/97 "2018-03-27T11:13:25Z")
I assure you that the police in USA kill far far more people unjustifiably that most anywhere else. > **[By the numbers: US police kill more in days than other countries do in years](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries)** > > The Guardian has built the most comprehensive database of US police killing ever published. Compare our findings to those from the UK, Australia, Iceland and beyond How much freedom does a dead body have? None, they took away everything. So rah rah rah freedom? Is that freedom? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/98 "2018-03-27T11:39:30Z")
Our Commonwealth legal systems are generally pretty good. If it was a guy just making a harmless joke, the law will respond accordingly. If not, the system will respond as we have come to feel is appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/99 "2018-03-27T12:02:32Z")
Utterly ridiculous. It’s an obvious gag, not an intent to harass or intimidate. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/100 "2018-03-27T13:17:35Z")
> [@Ricky Gervais](#): > > If you don’t believe in a person’s right to say things that you might find ‘grossly offensive’, then you don’t believe in Freedom of Speech. [Cite](http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-43478925). > [@Isamu](#): > > Our Commonwealth legal systems are generally pretty good. If it was a guy just making a harmless joke, the law will respond accordingly. Well, he’s been convicted. And the judge said he didn’t believe it was a joke, and that even if it were humorous, it didn’t protect him. Which is pretty much unanswerable - how do you prove that something is a joke? _De minimis non curat lex_ takes another poke in the eye, and not from Larry, Moe, or Curly. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080.md?page=6)