# one small goose-step closer to thirteen o'clock **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080 "2018-03-23T16:34:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/101 "2018-03-27T13:36:02Z")
Some countries/societies have agreed to the law moderating speech with regards to the spreading of hate. They believe it creates a better space for dialogue. Even societies that also appreciate and protect free speech. Everybody doesn’t have to do it the American way. Just as some internet bulletin boards benefit from moderation. Tempering free speech, also with regards to hateful words, because it improves the general environment for conversation. I can’t think of a better place for a slippery slope argument than a guy asking to be excused, ‘cause it’s a joke!’, posting ‘gas the jews’ on a public forum. If he’d gotten off, and then you started selling tee shirts of his cat with the caption, would that then be okay? I agree with the judge, not funny, not buying your ‘joke’ excuse. I agree with a society unwilling to tolerate hate speech, too. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/102 "2018-03-27T13:43:08Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I can’t think of a better place for a slippery slope argument than a guy asking to be excused, ‘cause it’s a joke!’, posting ‘gas the jews’ on a public forum. If he’d gotten off, and then you started selling tee shirts of his cat with the caption, would that then be okay? Yes, that would be okay. Suppose I watch the first video and see a little dog going “Sieg Heil”. Then I watch another video of someone also going “Sieg Heil” who means it. Don’t you think I might see a similarity between the two, to the detriment of the person who meant it? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/103 "2018-03-27T14:42:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The claim that Shodan made is something about gored oxen, though, and it’s blatantly clear that the free speech violations that the right complain about are overwhelmingly, on this board and on Fox News both, trifling shit like this pug case, instead of serious governmental overreaches like the UNC case or the cops-beating-up-mouthy-civilian cases. I’m not sure what makes one case “serious government overreach” in your view, compared to “trifling shit” like the pug case. Is it the power of a democratically elected government? > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yes, it applies. Jim Crow laws, democratically passed, were less bad than racist extrajudicial police actions. Both were shitty, but the latter–all else being equal–were shittier. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > On the contrary, because this case represents people constraining themselves according to democratic structures, it’s even less bad. If the populace as a whole wants this state behavior changed, it’s an easy fix to change it. Wasn’t the UNC situation decided by the democratically elected government? Does that not mean, according to your own argument, that such a case is _easier to solve_? Was that not the criterion you laid out? I was under the impression that the UNC decision was rightfully made according to the established laws of North Carolina, tho clearly under false pretenses. It’s not my current impression that the regents of the university resorted to extralegal means. I assumed they were well within their legal rights to do what they did, despite the relative lack of wisdom of their decision. Was I misinformed about that? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/104 "2018-03-27T15:03:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes, that would be okay. > > Suppose I watch the first video and see a little dog going “Sieg Heil”. Then I watch another video of someone also going “Sieg Heil” who means it. Don’t you think I might see a similarity between the two, to the detriment of the person who meant it? > > Regards, > Shodan Well, it’s good to know you’re cool with gas the Jew tee shirts? I guess. But in a country that does regulate hate speech, that would be hate speech. (As I said, not everyone has to do it the American way.) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/105 "2018-03-27T15:19:57Z")
They don’t have to. IMO they should, if for no other reason than it leads to criminal conviction for Stupid Pet Tricks. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/106 "2018-03-27T15:38:20Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > I’m not sure what makes one case “serious government overreach” in your view, compared to “trifling shit” like the pug case. > > Is it the power of a democratically elected government? No. Perhaps I should have mentioned before in this thread that I care about differences in outcomes. If I tell you that now, does that help you understand the difference I’m seeing? > [@](#): > > Wasn’t the UNC situation decided by the democratically elected government? Does that not mean, according to your own argument, that such a case is _easier to solve_? Easier to solve than what–than if they were shutting things down extra-legally and the government were uninterested in stopping them? Yes. If you’re somehow thinking that “easier” is synonymous with “easy,” it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/107 "2018-03-27T15:45:53Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Well, it’s good to know you’re cool with gas the Jew tee shirts? I guess. I asked you this before but you didn’t answer so I’ll ask again. Are you saying those words, in any context, are hate speech? Did you just post “hate speech”? ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/108 "2018-03-27T16:21:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No. Perhaps I should have mentioned before in this thread that I care about differences in outcomes. If I tell you that now, does that help you understand the difference I’m seeing? Yes. You say this in Post 89, too, I just missed it earlier. I don’t think I would’ve asked if I had caught that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/109 "2018-03-27T18:55:50Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > Yes. > > You say this in Post 89, too, I just missed it earlier. I don’t think I would’ve asked if I had caught that. Fair enough! I’m far more concerned with what actually happens than with what could theoretically happen. I’ve caught a fair amount of grief around here for it :). It tends to look a lot like “ends justifies the means,” but I’m only in favor of such a summation if folks are really clear on how little distinction there can ever be between ends and means. But that’s probably taking us pretty far afield. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/110 "2018-03-27T19:55:17Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I asked you this before but you didn’t answer so I’ll ask again. > > Are you saying those words, in any context, are hate speech? > > Did you just post “hate speech”? If you cannot see the self evident distinction, I’m Certainly not going to try and convinvce you. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/111 "2018-03-27T20:49:27Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > If you cannot see the self evident distinction, I’m Certainly not going to try and convinvce you. What is the distinction? He used those words, you’ve used those words several times now, You’ve posted them online, is that not hate speech? If it is so self-evident then it should be trivially easy for you to explain why. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/112 "2018-03-27T20:52:50Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > What is the distinction? He used those words, you’ve used those words several times now, You’ve posted them online, is that not hate speech? > > If it is so self-evident then it should be trivially easy for you to explain why. FFS this is a well-known phenomenon: using a taboo phrase specifically to discuss the use of the taboo phrase is a categorically different use of the taboo phrase from using the taboo phrase for the common usage of the taboo phrase, even if it’s an ironic use of the taboo phrase. Are you seriously unfamiliar with this categorical distinction (the reason I may use the word “wetback” in this example sentence without fearing moderator sanction)? Or are you trying to make people jump through hoops for your entertainment? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/113 "2018-03-27T21:09:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > FFS this is a well-known phenomenon: using a taboo phrase specifically to discuss the use of the taboo phrase is a categorically different use of the taboo phrase from using the taboo phrase for the common usage of the taboo phrase, even if it’s an ironic use of the taboo phrase. Are you seriously unfamiliar with this categorical distinction (the reason I may use the word “wetback” in this example sentence without fearing moderator sanction)? Or are you trying to make people jump through hoops for your entertainment? I _know_ all of that, I _know_ that it is categorically different…what I want **Elbows** to admit is the _reason_ it is categorically different., a little word…one beginning with “c”, the one thing that the judge decided in this case was irrelevant is the one thing that we all know to be the only thing that matters… **Elbows**? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/114 "2018-03-27T21:54:06Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I _know_ all of that, I _know_ that it is categorically different…what I want **Elbows** to admit is the _reason_ it is categorically different., a little word…one beginning with “c”, the one thing that the judge decided in this case was irrelevant is the one thing that we all know to be the only thing that matters… **Elbows**? Word beginning with “c”? How about “coy”? Because that’s an irritating thing to be in a debate. Just say what you want to say, ferchrissakes. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/115 "2018-03-28T00:04:28Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Almost nobody aside from hardcore anarchists support absolute free speech. Yes but if you’re not allowed to insult someone then you don’t have free speech. It’s a pretty simple litmus test. there are no degrees of free speech. Either you have the ability to speak your mind or you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/116 "2018-03-28T00:14:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes but if you’re not allowed to insult someone then you don’t have free speech. It’s a pretty simple litmus test. there are no degrees of free speech. Either you have the ability to speak your mind or you don’t. That’s ridiculous. Free speech: “Fire!” in a crowded theater: “Kill him, my minions!” to your minions, about your captive; child pornography; slander and libel. Almost free speech: Take these away, but allow nearly everything else. Less free speech: Take away hardcore pornography about consenting adults, or take away speech advocating genocide, or take away certain forms of paid political speech. Less free speech: take away softcore porn, or speech with racial/sexist slurs, or certain forms of extreme insults (“fighting words”). Less free speech: take away suggestive language/art, or speech that advocates unpopular opinions, or all insults. Less free speech: take away the ability to criticize those in power. This ain’t pregnancy. Of course there’s a continuum. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/117 "2018-03-28T01:03:21Z")
I can’t say I support this conviction. I don’t really know all the facts though. I will wait and gather more information. I hope he appeals. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/118 "2018-03-28T01:28:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s ridiculous. > > Free speech: “Fire!” in a crowded theater: “Kill him, my minions!” Your examples are not free speech as I described it above. the theater example is an example of incitement to panic and the second is an incitement to riot. they represent a danger to the public. The laws in the UK and other countries place a legal penalty on opinion. That is not the case in the US. You want to call President Trump every name in the book then you’re free to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/119 "2018-03-28T01:40:25Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Your examples are not free speech as I described it above. the theater example is an example of incitement to panic and the second is an incitement to riot. they represent a danger to the public. > > The laws in the UK and other countries place a legal penalty on opinion. That is not the case in the US. You want to call President Trump every name in the book then you’re free to do so. You can also legally harass the families of dead soldiers at their funerals. Do you support that? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080/120 "2018-03-28T01:48:14Z")
No, they simply see a danger to the public where you don’t. It is not unreasonable to see a danger to the public in the free spreading of hate. Much like this moderated board, keeping hateful expression out of the discourse makes for more fruitful discussion, in measurable ways. Americans think it’s okay to say any hateful thing, no matter how vile, in the name of free speech. Other nations feel differently while still valuing free speech. They’ve just tagged on another restriction on top of the inciting riots, and crowded theatre fire, examples. It’s just slightly modified, from the American model, of free speech. The people’s of these nations democratically voted for and endorse this, so I’m not seeing a problem. This guy pushed right up against the rules and the court passed judgement on it having gone too far. It’s only really outrageous news because it pushes the buttons of Americans. Otherwise it’s a bit of a non story, in my opinion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-small-goose-step-closer-to-thirteen-oclock/811080.md?page=7)