# One tagger who got it right **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 6, 2007, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981 "2007-01-06T22:49:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981/61 "2007-01-08T15:04:58Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] I could have done without the jerkface tone in your response. [/QUOTE] And I could have done without that accusation of hypocrisy, and stealing. Have you ever seen a scrap pile on a construction site? It’s a big heap of muddy plywood pieces, framing lumber, plumbing parts, electrical wires, etc. Anyone with half a brain could see that it is scrap, \*aka \*refuse, \*aka \*garbage, \*aka \*shit nobody wants anymore. If you put an old TV out for the garbage man, is the guy who picks it up before the garbage man gets there stealing? Trespassing? How about the guy who collects cans for resale? Is he stealing? After all, it’s not his property, now is it? What is your problem, exactly? I take junk and turn it into art. I pretty much have to go where the junk is to do that. The junk would end up in the landfill. How the hell is that remotely equivalent to vandalising someone’s property? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981/62 "2007-01-08T16:15:58Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] If you’re going to invent shit, why not invent that the business owners ask the taggers to fuck up their facades? Who said anything about trespassing? [/QUOTE] There’s a business owner in Beverly, Massachusetts who’s invited taggers to use one wall of his building, the one that faces the train tracks (but is separated from them by several yards and a fence). The long one-story wall is covered with layer upon layer of tagging, mostly sigs but sometimes some amazingly fine images. There’s rarely any grafitti on the buildings nearby. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981/63 "2007-01-08T16:24:06Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] There’s a business owner in Beverly, Massachusetts who’s invited taggers to use one wall of his building, the one that faces the train tracks (but is separated from them by several yards and a fence). The long one-story wall is covered with layer upon layer of tagging, mostly sigs but sometimes some amazingly fine images. There’s rarely any grafitti on the buildings nearby. [/QUOTE] That’s great. I suspect it so rare as to be statiscally insignificant. At any rate, it is not really on point with the question of whether tagging is vandalism, or whether culling from a scrap heap is stealing. As an aside, it honestly never ocurred to me that the concept of culling from a scrap heap would be so fraught with ambiguity. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981/64 "2007-01-08T17:01:41Z")
Look, **Contrapuntal**. I don’t have a problem with what you do. But your original post jumped out at me because it sounded like this: "Hey, those posers! Taking the easy way by using other people’s properties as a canvas! Those thieves! They should do what I do and take materials from construction sites!" Later, you added that you work at construction sites (which would give you a legitimate connection to the work site) and that you don’t advocate trespassing . These ingredients were missing from your orginal post, and I just wanted to make sure you weren’t recommending doing illegal activites to avoid doing illegal activities. I have no problem with what you do, Mr. Defensive. I was only seeking clarification, which I got with a bunch of hostility wrapped around it. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981/65 "2007-01-08T17:11:24Z")
[QUOTE=Rick] Yes the tragedy was that the 1,000 people going home on the train were late for dinner due this Darwin Award winner tagging and not being smart enough to stay off the railroad tracks. Oh and a correction to the news story, he wasn’t a good boy, he was a fucking vandal. [/QUOTE] What **Rick** said! ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981/66 "2007-01-08T17:16:55Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] As an aside, it honestly never ocurred to me that the concept of culling from a scrap heap would be so fraught with ambiguity. [/QUOTE] “Culling from a scrap heap” is not fraught with ambiguity, as it suggests a person will be pulling material from an area clearly designated for waste. A homeless person rooting around in a restuarant dumpster for food is “cullling from a scrap heap”. “Scrounging for scraps”–which is what you said initially–suggests someone is going hunting for materials to take from a private site. A homeless person rooting around in somebody’s garage for old rags is “scrounging for scraps”. The ambiguity is not a big deal, but no one misunderstood you on purpose so just chill, why doncha? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981/67 "2007-01-08T17:21:42Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] “Scrounging for scraps”–which is what you said initially–suggests someone is going hunting for materials to take from a private site. [/quote] Actually what you said was “why not scrounge construction sites for scrap plywood…” ---
**Author:** ![Ice\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dfb087/32.png) [@Ice\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ice_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981/68 "2007-01-08T17:29:20Z")
[QUOTE=kambuckta] I find the proliferation of graffiti in urban areas an interesting sociological phenomenon actually. My personal hypothesis (not yet tested, but I WILL do a research study one day 😛 ) is that as individuals, particularly youths, have become more and more disenfranchised from the community at large, they have an increasing desire to leave their mark **literally** on the landscape. [/QUOTE] I can certainly see merit in **kambuckta’s** hypothesis. There is that element of social disconnection from what I’ve seen here. But there’s also the analogy of dogs pissing up against a wall to mark territory, and the thrill of doing something anti-social – and getting away with it scot-free. Yes, they’re vandals. They’re contributing to visual pollution most of the time. True art in that form is in the minority of instances. It annoys me to see public amenities, building, walls and the scenery around rail corridors covered with their piss-work. But they don’t deserve to die doing it. If a kid gets hit by a train while taking a shortcut across the tracks – said kid shouldn’t have been there, he/she endangered themselves, surely they could be considered (by some) to be “Darwin’s Award candidates”? But we feel sorry for them and their parents. Same with the tagger who was killed. Bloody idiot shouldn’t have been there – but he didn’t deserve to die for being an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981/69 "2007-01-08T17:31:29Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] Construction sites aren’t public property. Taggers who fuck up business owner’s buildings will not be improving their moral status by taking things from construction sites without permission. [/QUOTE] Bullshit. That certainly would improve their moral status. Stealing garbage is certainly preferable to vandalizing private property. Hell, most people pay to have their garbage taken away. Would you rather have someone steal your garbage, or spraypaint a ‘tag’ on your garage door? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981/70 "2007-01-08T18:56:02Z")
[QUOTE=Absolute] Bullshit. That certainly would improve their moral status. Stealing garbage is certainly preferable to vandalizing private property. Hell, most people pay to have their garbage taken away. Would you rather have someone steal your garbage, or spraypaint a ‘tag’ on your garage door? [/QUOTE] Would you want someone scrounging around on your property, taking it upon themselves to decide what’s scrap and what’s not? If it’s a clearly marked garbage pile, that’s one thing. But if its material left laying on the grounds of a construction site, then you need to ask for permission before you take it. That’s all I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981/71 "2007-01-08T19:19:59Z")
[QUOTE=Absolute] Bullshit. That certainly would improve their moral status. Stealing garbage is certainly preferable to vandalizing private property. Hell, most people pay to have their garbage taken away. Would you rather have someone steal your garbage, or spraypaint a ‘tag’ on your garage door? [/QUOTE] Absolutely, because if they’re stealing garbage and get injured, the construction company has insurance. I’m still a little unclear here. Are they supposed to go to the site when the men are there working, or when they’re finished for the day? Should they have hardhats? How about steel-toed boots? ---
**Author:** ![MrSquishy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9e5f3/32.png) [@MrSquishy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrSquishy)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981/72 "2007-01-08T19:40:45Z")
[QUOTE=Absolute] What value? They’re fucking vandals. If I caught one in the act, I’d make him aware of his ‘value’ with a baseball bat. While I don’t really think that all ‘taggers’ deserve death, I can’t muster very much sympathy for this kid. [/QUOTE] I wonder, can you muster any for his mother? ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981/73 "2007-01-08T19:48:59Z")
[QUOTE=MrSquishy] I wonder, can you muster any for his mother? [/QUOTE] Of course - but that’s irrelevant. I feel sympathy for the parents and relatives of anyone who dies, even convicted murderers on death row. ---
**Author:** ![ltfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@ltfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ltfire)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981/74 "2007-01-08T20:23:26Z")
Here’s the last paragraph in todays update of the story (NY Daily News). ‘Ari’s family has vowed to sue the LIRR and the city for failing to do more to block access to the tracks’. GAAAH! ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981/75 "2007-01-08T21:23:32Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] I have no problem with what you do, Mr. Defensive. I was only seeking clarification, which I got with a bunch of hostility wrapped around it. [/QUOTE] You accused me of hypocrisy. You accused me of stealing. You put words in my mouth by claiming that **I** was the one designating what was scrap and what was not. What do you expect, flowers and candy? > [@](#): > > Would you want someone scrounging around on your property, taking it upon themselves to decide what’s scrap and what’s not? There you go again. It’s a given that the material is scrap. A really huge fucking clue was when I called it “scrap plywood,” not “construction materials left lying around.” > [@](#): > > If it’s a clearly marked garbage pile, that’s one thing. That’s pretty much where the scrap goes. [QUOTE=you with the face] Actually what you said was “why not scrounge construction sites for scrap plywood…” [/QUOTE] Exactly. Good catch. Scrap plywood. What about that is ambiguous? Scrap, garbage, refuse, shit nobody else wants, things being thrown away – what the hell is so difficult about this? Have your sister retract her allegations why doncha, and maybe I’ll chill. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981/76 "2007-01-08T21:32:11Z")
[QUOTE=MrSquishy] I wonder, can you muster any for his mother? [/QUOTE] Until I got to post #74 I did feel sorry for her. Now I feel sorry that the taxpayers will have to pay for her poor mothering skils. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981/77 "2007-01-08T21:32:14Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Exactly. Good catch. Scrap plywood. What about that is ambiguous? Scrap, garbage, refuse, shit nobody else wants, things being thrown away – what the hell is so difficult about this? [/QUOTE] So what we were all supposed to reason is that you were suggesting that taggers all start working for construction companies so they’ll have legal access and proper knowledge of what is “scrap” on the construction site? Great advice, moron, though I can see why you think it’s “less easy” that way. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981/78 "2007-01-08T21:34:32Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] What about that is ambiguous? Scrap, garbage, refuse, shit nobody else wants, things being thrown away – what the hell is so difficult about this? [/QUOTE] How are you expecting they get to the rollaway dumpster, though? Should they be on the jobsite when work is being done? Will the construction company want kids with spraycans wandering around the site after the work is done? What sort of safety equipment would you recommend? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981/79 "2007-01-08T21:39:59Z")
[QUOTE=saoirse] How are you expecting they get to the rollaway dumpster, though? [/QUOTE] You can usually pick the plywood up off the ground. > [@](#): > > Should they be on the jobsite when work is being done? Probably not. Check with the superintendent. > [@](#): > > Will the construction company want kids with spraycans wandering around the site after the work is done? The spraycans would just get in the way. > [@](#): > > What sort of safety equipment would you recommend? Shoes and gloves. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981/80 "2007-01-08T21:42:02Z")
[QUOTE=kambuckta] I find the proliferation of graffiti in urban areas an interesting sociological phenomenon actually. My personal hypothesis (not yet tested, but I WILL do a research study one day 😛 ) is that as individuals, particularly youths, have become more and more disenfranchised from the community at large, they have an increasing desire to leave their mark **literally** on the landscape. Back in the good ol’ days, young men had their roles in the family and society very much cut out for them. In their work, they could see the fruits of their labour **transform** the environment: from the hunter-gatherers, to more modern rural settings (tending animals and growing crops etc). Most young blokes throughout history have ‘made’ things that have endured…houses for the family to live in, bridges for the horse and cart to cross the river, and even the cart and saddle for the horses themselves. You can add to the list as you see fit. Nowadays though, the social story is very different. Young urban men in particular often do not have adequate modelling to manifest their ‘manhood’. Their roles in the family (often single-parented, minus dad) are confused and ill-defined. Poor educational outcomes and poverty often mean their later employment options are equally poor . So you have a generation of kids, on the street, trying to carve a niche out for themselves where they have an identity and the community can ‘recognise’ their value. Graffiti is one way of doing that, and amongst the subculture of taggers great kudos and ‘social capital’ can be gained. Your hypothesis might be different of course. 😉 [/QUOTE] I think this is great. There really is a lot to be said for the need for people (maybe especially young people) to make things. Very interesting hypothesis. [QUOTE=TheLoadedDog] I’m a railfan. I think trains are beautiful. I further think graffiti is ugly and the “artists” involved should have their balls cut off. You, gentle reader, might not be a rail enthusiast. Statistically, you probably aren’t. So let’s use a different example. Would it be okay for some punk little shit to tag your car? After all, it doesn’t make it any less useful! You own the car, so you might be unimpressed. I am a taxpayer, and I own the train. I am similarly unimpressed. [/QUOTE] Hu. I never thought of myself as owning the rail cars before. They are, to me, bland objects that get in my way sometimes then pass into the distance, never to be seen again. Do Americans “own” the rail cars? I was under the impression (perhaps from Monopoly) that the rail-ways were independently owned, but I never really looked into it. I would be offended by graffiti on passenger rail cars, but freight ones? Not really. As for everyone jumping all over **Contrapuntal** for suggesting that people wishing to express themselves artistically use refuse instead of the sides of personal property: Construction sites have big piles of what is obviously garbage next to them. Sometimes these piles are actually in big, open dumpsters. We aren’t talking about wondering through high-rises getting in the way and looking for potential junk. All anyone would need to do to get some scrap plywood or drywall or whatever would be to go to a construction site, ask anyone working there if it was okay to take something from the trash pile, and, having secured permission, take it. Baring this, surely some sort of cardboard or waste paper is available somewhere to paint on if one is so inclined. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-tagger-who-got-it-right/386981.md?page=5)