# One thing George Lucas doesn't get enough credit for (actually 2) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 27, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159 "2015-03-27T21:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159/81 "2015-03-28T23:35:37Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > This is pure fanwank, but: > > Palpatine needs the Jedi to commit to the war with the Separtists, and not sit it out as a neutral party. Maul’s attack isn’t meant to stop them, or even necessarily kill any of them (although if he can kill a Jedi, bonus!). The point is to make them run back to the Jedi Council and report that the Sith are helping the Separtists. Countering the Sith is very much Jedi business, so they’re more likely to help the Republic, making them vulnerable to Palpatine’s long-term plan. This is the ONLY way it makes sense, so I don’t think it’s just fan-wanking. There’s maybe some reading between the lines required. Jedi involvement in TPM starts off being limited to negotiations between the Separatists and Naboo. And what happens there? The Separatists attack the two Jedi for no reason whatsoever… well, no reason except getting Jedi involved in the war. And then later in the same episode, Maul attacks the same two Jedi, also apparently for no reason. The only explanation is that revealing the Sith will also get Jedi involved in the war. The only problem with this analysis is that TPM is such a terrible movie overall we can’t be certain the logic holds. There really is a possibility that TPM is just a two-hour commercial for pod-racing video games and that things just don’t make sense otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159/82 "2015-03-29T06:29:05Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > General Grievous was an infinitely more impressive villain than Darth Maul, genuinely intimidating and a complete badass, his fight against five Jedi’s at the same time is one of the best scenes in any of the Star Wars canon. > > I’m talking about the cartoon version of course, the movie version was a pathetic shadow in comparison, but I assume thats because George ‘I have no idea what I’m doing’ Lucas got his hands on him. I was really looking forward to seeing the movie version of him but as in most aspects of the sequels was more than a bit disappointed. Just saw the General Grievous scene from, I think, the first PT animated series. I never liked the animation style, but overall, it’s pretty damn good! The scene where he fights the 5 Jedi had some serious suspense leading up. I’m still watching and one of the Jedi gets rescued by the clone troopers, but it’s still not over… Damn, now I understand why so many people say the Clone Wars cartoons are so much better than the actual PT films. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159/83 "2015-03-29T10:31:17Z")
> [@Gerald\_II](#): > > Damn, now I understand why so many people say the Clone Wars cartoons are so much better than the actual PT films. I had heard this from a few people but definitely here at the SDMB many times. I finally got curious and decided I’d give the series a try when I started Netflix. I could not get past the first episode. I realize some shows take a while to really come together, but this first episode was so bad I couldn’t put myself through even just one more to see if it got any better. Yoda and some clones land on a planet that’s trying to decide to join the separatists or stay with the Republic. Whoever was the ambassador for the separatists arrives at the same time and …I don’t know, it was something like “If I can kill Yoda in 24 hours, join us separatists. If I can’t kill Yoda, then stay with the Republic,” the guy trying to decide was, like, “O.K., fair enough!” I’ve lost memory of the details, but what I really remember was that during the whole episode, while baddies are trying to kill them, Yoda is teaching his three Clone guards that even though they are clones, they matter as individuals and have their own individual talents and they’re special. I half expected a shooting start to traverse the screen followed by _“The More You Know!”_. It seemed _very_ much directed at young children. So, I never got around to seeing General Grievous fighting 5 Jedi. I’d be inclined to imagine it being about helping or teamwork or taking turns. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159/84 "2015-03-29T10:52:17Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > So, I never got around to seeing General Grievous fighting 5 Jedi. > I’d be inclined to imagine it being about helping or teamwork or taking turns. You’d be wrong! I haven’t actually seen all the Clone Wars episodes so I imagine the quality varies, but this is a good one. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159/85 "2015-03-29T11:10:33Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > You’d be wrong! Hey, I fully recognize that a first episode is often not a good representation of a full series. It takes a while for a series to hit its stride. It’s just that I felt this particular first episode was _so_ bad that I couldn’t keep going with it. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159/86 "2015-03-29T11:22:22Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > Hey, I fully recognize that a first episode is often not a good representation of a full series. It takes a while for a series to hit its stride. It’s just that I felt this particular first episode was _so_ bad that I couldn’t keep going with it. Well I meant that in an encouraging sense, you should give that one episode a try even if you don’t bother with the rest of the series. It really is how light-sabre battles should be done. Thats part of what irked me about the prequels, they twirled the light-sabres around as if they were weightless, in the original trilogy they seemed to have weight and momentum, it really felt like they were engaged in sword-fighting, in the prequels, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159/87 "2015-03-29T13:58:37Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > Thats part of what irked me about the prequels, they twirled the light-sabres around as if they were weightless, in the original trilogy they seemed to have weight and momentum, it really felt like they were engaged in sword-fighting, in the prequels, not so much. The lightsabers are made out of space age polymers. ---
**Author:** ![Aquadementia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aquadementia/32/555_2.png) [@Aquadementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquadementia)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159/88 "2015-03-29T15:02:05Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > I had heard this from a few people but definitely here at the SDMB many times. > > I finally got curious and decided I’d give the series a try when I started Netflix. I could not get past the first episode. I realize some shows take a while to really come together, but this first episode was so bad I couldn’t put myself through even just one more to see if it got any better. There are two Clone Wars series. The first is a [2003 micro series](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Clone_Wars_%282003_TV_series%29)that premiered between the Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith. It was given more freedom because George was too busy with the movies. Made by Genndy Tartakovsky (the best ever director of action cartoons) it vastly improved the on movies. It’s everything great about Star Wars and then some. Grievous might take any five regular Jedi, but he’s putty in the hands of Mace Windu who totally rocks in this. I think George Lucas thought he was too powerful. Then there is the [2008 cgi series](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clone_Wars_%28TV_series%29) that people say gets better at the end. It looks good but I find hard to watch because it’s everything bad about Star Wars and it sounds like George wrote the dialogue himself. It sounds like you watched the second one. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159/89 "2015-03-30T06:03:48Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > And then he probably told the fight choreographer “I want a fighting style that is very intimidating and aggressive!!! Make him look really tough and evil!!!”… you won’t get any credit for it but you will get a paycheck. I don’t know if he got a separate paycheck, since the guy who did Maul’s fight choreography was…Darth Maul. There was an overall fight choreographer, but Ray Park came up with his own moves because, [as he says](http://www.dmeb.net/raypark/wizard.shtml), he’s a better martial artist than the overseer: > [@](#): > > Everything to do with Darth Maul, that was me. The stunt coordinator [Nick Gillard] worked on it, but he didn’t teach me how to fight. If anything, I know more than he does when it comes to martial arts. But he’s very good at coordinating, so I worked with him. And I was there to help [co-stars Ewan McGregor and Liam Neeson]. But everything to do with Darth Maul was me, my input, my style. I try not to boast about it, but I’m very proud of it. Of course, he may just be talking himself up, but I can believe it. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159/90 "2015-03-30T17:35:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I don’t know if he got a separate paycheck, since the guy who did Maul’s fight choreography was…Darth Maul. There was an overall fight choreographer, but Ray Park came up with his own moves because, [as he says](http://www.dmeb.net/raypark/wizard.shtml), he’s a better martial artist than the overseer: > Of course, he may just be talking himself up, but I can believe it. He was also the Headless Horseman stunt double in _Sleepy Hollow_ for the fighting scenes. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159/91 "2015-03-30T18:35:35Z")
For me, the biggest absurdity was in AOTC, when Obi-Wan discovers a clone army that a former Jedi supposedly ordered. But this is a transaction which nobody has records of and no indication of how any kind of payment was made. So later, our Jedi friends are getting screwed on Geonossis and TA-DA! Droid army to the rescue! How in the world did that happen? Did they just go–ooh, free Droid Army: Yoink!?! Why in the world would they trust an army that they didn’t order, pay for, or have any oversight on? Because the plot required it, even though it doesn’t make a lick of sense. And are we to believe the Senate, notorious for letting everything sit in committee, would just approve the appropriation of this convenient Mystery Army without any debate and in time to save the day at the last minute? And even if the Senate did it for craven reasons, where is the Jedi wisdom on display in this preposterous strategy? And then there’s Anakin’s conversion in ROTS, which boils down to “You know, I heard a rumor once that maybe there had perhaps been a Jedi who could actually overcome death, and don’t you think this strange little anecdotal fairy tale is enough to betray your band of Jedi brothers and slaughter a host of children in a heartbeat?” It’s only effective “manipulation” if you throw out every notion of credible characterization. Ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159/92 "2015-03-30T19:10:07Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > He was also the Headless Horseman stunt double in _Sleepy Hollow_ for the fighting scenes. And Toad in the original X-Men movie. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159/93 "2015-03-30T19:16:14Z")
> [@MovieMogul](#): > > And then there’s Anakin’s conversion in ROTS, which boils down to “You know, I heard a rumor once that maybe there had perhaps been a Jedi who could actually overcome death, and don’t you think this strange little anecdotal fairy tale is enough to betray your band of Jedi brothers and slaughter a host of children in a heartbeat?” It’s only effective “manipulation” if you throw out every notion of credible characterization. Ridiculous. I agree here, big time. I think it’s shame that there isn’t a [well known story about a honorable and brave warrior being corrupted into committing a terrible crime because he listened to the lies told to him by someone he thought was a trusted friend](http://media2.popsugar-assets.com/files/2013/09/13/976/n/1922283/76f5a66988506ce0_Othello.xxxlarge/i/Othello.jpg), that Lucas might have cribbed from. ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159/94 "2015-03-30T19:16:49Z")
> [@Aquadementia](#): > > Then there is the [2008 cgi series](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clone_Wars_%28TV_series%29) that people say gets better at the end. It looks good but I find hard to watch because it’s everything bad about Star Wars and it sounds like George wrote the dialogue himself. > It sounds like you watched the second one. I was going to say the CGI one I saw didn’t look too good but that was Disney’s Star Wars Rebels. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I don’t know if he got a separate paycheck, since the guy who did Maul’s fight choreography was…Darth Maul. There was an overall fight choreographer, but Ray Park came up with his own moves because, [as he says](http://www.dmeb.net/raypark/wizard.shtml), he’s a better martial artist than the overseer: > Of course, he may just be talking himself up, but I can believe it. Maybe it was the way it was filmed but I didn’t think the fight in Ep I was all that exciting. > [@Disposable Hero](#): > > Thats part of what irked me about the prequels, they twirled the light-sabres around as if they were weightless, in the original trilogy they seemed to have weight and momentum, it really felt like they were engaged in sword-fighting, in the prequels, not so much. It seemed like in Ep I they weren’t really trying to strike each other but just trying to tap lightsabers. I’m comparing the sword fights from the PT and OT right now. You can kind of tell in Empire Strikes Back that they’re also just trying to tap lightsabers, but it seems like it IS a matter of filming and angles that sells it better. I think the 2 on 1 battles in the PT also made it more difficult to portray. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159/95 "2015-03-30T21:26:11Z")
Nonsuch: > [@](#): > > In other words, Boba Fett. People who talk about how “cool” he is are basically talking about how cool his helmet is. Or how cool it was to get a special-order action figure that wasn’t available in stores. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159/96 "2015-03-30T21:50:14Z")
> [@MovieMogul](#): > > And then there’s Anakin’s conversion in ROTS, which boils down to “You know, I heard a rumor once that maybe there had perhaps been a Jedi who could actually overcome death, and don’t you think this strange little anecdotal fairy tale is enough to betray your band of Jedi brothers and slaughter a host of children in a heartbeat?” It’s only effective “manipulation” if you throw out every notion of credible characterization. Ridiculous. Interesting, because I had a vastly different interpretation of that scene. I read it as Palpatine being coy about revealing what he personally knows how to do. You know, like a drug dealer saying with a wink “Sure, I might know someone who could get you some meth” or a mafia gangster saying “These cigarettes just fell off the back of a truck.” Here’s the transcript of that conversation: > [@](#): > > ``` > Palpatine: Did you ever hear the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise? > Anakin: No. > Palpatine: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith so powerful and so wise, he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create...life. He had such a knowledge of the Dark Side, he could even keep the ones he cared about...from dying. > Anakin: He could actually...save people from death? > Palpatine: The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. > Anakin: What happened to him? > Palpatine: He became so powerful, the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power...which, eventually of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew. Then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. Ironic. He could save others from death...but not himself. > Anakin: Is it possible to learn this power? > Palpatine: Not from a Jedi. > > ``` Palpatine/Sidious is the apprentice who was taught everything. And another of Palpatine’s promises, that explicitly promises the ability Anakin wants: > [@](#): > > Anakin, if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace…a larger view of the Force. Be careful of the Jedi, Anakin. They fear you. In time, they will destroy you. Let me show you the true nature of the Force. Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi! Learn to know the dark side of the Force, and you will be able to save your wife from certain death. So there are weaknesses to how/why Anakin turns, but he was promised a lot more than fairy tales. Edited to add: I do realize that Palpatine also suggests elsewhere that he can’t actually prevent people from dying. For example, in the scene when Anakin finally turns, Palpatine says: “To cheat death is the power only one has achieved, but if we work together…I know we can discover the secret.” Still, more than fairy tales there. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Winkler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/82dd89/32.png) [@The\_Winkler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Winkler)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159/97 "2015-04-01T06:30:16Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > I have to admit, that fight between Palpatine and Yoda in the senate in RotS was pretty badass. I thought Yoda looked ridiculous leaping around the screen with a light saber. It reminded me of the Korean Midget Wrestlers that Archie Bunker loved to watch. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159/98 "2015-04-01T07:08:00Z")
I’ve always heard Speedy Gonzalez going “andele andele, yeeba yeeba!!” while Yoda was doing his thing. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159/99 "2015-04-01T07:25:02Z")
> [@Johnny\_Q](#): > > I’ve always heard Speedy Gonzalez going “andele andele, yeeba yeeba!!” while Yoda was doing his thing. Of course, that would be “andele andele, _arriba arriba_” ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159/100 "2015-04-01T14:28:20Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Let’s not forget that Darth Vader in the first film, A New Hope, Episode 4, is one of the great film villains of all time. He looks evil, he is huge physically, has magical power and casually kills and tortures people and oversees the destruction of a whole planet. Nitpick: Tarkin was responsible for the destruction of Alderaan, not Vader. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-thing-george-lucas-doesnt-get-enough-credit-for-actually-2/716159.md?page=6)