# One Virgin Birth? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 29, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628 "2003-12-29T21:11:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628/21 "2003-12-31T05:03:36Z")
Maybe it was a whoosh? BTW **Zev** , Thanks for hanging in there on the Pope, virgin birth and the NT, oh and that gay Jesus thing. I adore irony.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628/22 "2003-12-31T05:10:35Z")
If Cecil said that Jesus was a “known” instance of Virgin Bith, then he was wrong. it is _not_ “known.” It is _prima facie_ impossible and it’s not even original as mythology. > [@](#): > > Facts? While I’ll be the first to admit that there are no facts that the resurrection of Jesus did occur, care to offer proof of your “fact” that it did not, in fact, occur. This one’s easy. It is a FACT that the resurrection did not occur because it’s a FACT that it’s _impossible_ for dead people to come back to life. Declaring the impossible to be impossible does not require proof. > [@](#): > > “Into the air” is not (by definition) outer space. Yes it is, at least as far as the NT describes the ascenscion. It says he literally ascended into the sky until he basically vanished. He did not stop suspended in the atmosphere, he was moving steadily up and up and up. The only logical inference is that he went into space. This is simply a reflection of arcahic three-level conception of the universe when people literally believed that heaven was in the sky. Obviously if Jesus was really travelling “up,” even at the speed of light, he still would not so much as left the galaxy yet. So if he wasn’t going into space, where was he going? If Heaven is not in the sky, then why the “ascenscion?” Why not just blink himself there. To me, the inherent misconception of the universe in the story is evidence that it is simply mythology…not that muc of an argument could be made for historicity in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628/23 "2003-12-31T05:16:44Z")
Oh and psst… **Deftriver** … **Zev** is _Jewish_. He doesn’t believe in those Jesus miracles either. He’s just playing Devil’s advocate. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628/24 "2003-12-31T05:36:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > This one’s easy. It is a FACT that the resurrection did not occur because it’s a FACT that it’s _impossible_ for dead people to come back to life. Declaring the impossible to be impossible does not require proof. False statement. There has been empiracle evidence of clinically dead people coming back to life. You’d need a time variable in here to make this an irrefutable statement. My last post here about **Zev** and his defense of my old religion was my 666 post. 😃 😃 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628/25 "2003-12-31T05:49:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > \*\*False statement. There has been empiracle evidence of clinically dead people coming back to life. You’d need a time variable in here to make this an irrefutable statement. My last post here about **Zev** and his defense of my old religion was my 666 post. 😃 😃 😃 \*\* [Monty Python] They weren’t _quite_ dead [/Monty Python] 😉 fair enough but Jesus was supposedly cold on a slab for at least a day and a half. Really, I was just being facetious agin. i should have used a 😛 smiley. Maybe I’m still a little frustrated from the ghost thread but it gets tiresome to hear the “you can’t prove X _isn’t_ true” argument as if that has any persuasive value. Basically, no one has any burden to prove Jesus _wasn’t_ resurrected, it is for those who want to persuade others that he _was_ to provide the evidence. After all, can anybody prove that Krishna _wasn’t_ a real guy with blue skin and multiple arms (something which is literally believed by millions of Hindus)? ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628/26 "2003-12-31T05:58:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > Basically, no one has any burden to prove Jesus _wasn’t_ resurrected, it is for those who want to persuade others that he _was_ to provide the evidence. The risen hippie aside:), I would consider it a miracle if one of two people would just honestly and intelligently answer the questions you asked, even a couple of them, rather than quote those same scriptures over and over and over. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![SparrowHawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac8455/32.png) [@SparrowHawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SparrowHawk)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628/27 "2003-12-31T06:35:02Z")
> [@](#): > > ## \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > > ## quote: “Into the air” is not (by definition) outer space. > > **Yes it is, at least as far as the NT describes the ascenscion. It says he literally ascended into the sky until he basically vanished. He did not stop suspended in the atmosphere, he was moving steadily up and up and up. The only logical inference is that he went into space.** I thought it says “a cloud received him out of their sight.” Doesn’t say how far up it was. Definitely doesn’t say he went up so high he “basically vanished.” You can insist on the “archaic three-level conception of the universe” if you like. It may, indeed, be accurate. But I wouldn’t lean too hard on the “outer space” thing if I were you. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628/28 "2003-12-31T13:43:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Frecklefoot \* > **Are transsexuals paragons of virtue?** Some of us try to be. How well we succeed is a matter of some debate… Seriously, the suggestion that Jesus was transsexual is bizarre, although there are those who take some passages from the Gospel of St. Thomas (which is not canon in the western Church) as sanctification of female-to-male transsexualism (“For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven.”). ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628/29 "2003-12-31T13:53:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by deftriver \* > **I’m not sure, you need sperm to make the male offspring. I think scientifically, I see absolutely no way for a virgin birth to be anything other than female. God would have to be one hell of a woman to make sperm materailize without a man present.** Sheesh! That’s like saying that Jesus never walked on water because humans lack the necessary buoyancy. It is presented as a supernatural event; sure, you may wish to argue that it never happened at all, but debunking your own ad hoc rationalisation is just absurd. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628/30 "2003-12-31T15:18:01Z")
Oooh, and the OP is gone now. Too bad. It was actually fun trying to shoot fish in a barrel once in a while. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628/31 "2003-12-31T15:41:44Z")
I don’t suppose he’d have lasted long anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Klytus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Klytus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Klytus)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628/32 "2003-12-31T22:16:56Z")
Sheesh. It took deftriver just one day to get banned. Is that a record? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628/33 "2003-12-31T22:44:00Z")
No; quite a few get banned after (or before even) their first post - On a scale of 1 to Bad, **deftriver** is mediocre. Shame. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628/34 "2003-12-31T23:13:52Z")
Also, having a degree in Mathematics doesn’t mean that a dictionary must collect dust…Deft was daft when it came to making valid points in that regard. I (as a fellow Mathematics degree holder) apologize to fellow dopers for this 2 standard deviations from the norm “mathematician”…:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628/35 "2003-12-31T23:42:29Z")
To be fair, not all accounts of Jesus say anything about the virgin birth, and none make it out to be a key part of Christian theology (that only happens later on). The idea that Mary should have a then-trendy virgin birth appears to come out of a misunderstanding the Gospel writers had with a Scriptural phrophecy that may not have even reffered to the “messianic age” messiah that Jesus was supposed to be (and, indeed, it may have reffered to events that came true in the very same scripture). All and all, it’s not necessarily a very big important point. If Joseph turned out to have actually knocked Mary up the old fashioned way, it’s not like the entire edifice of Christian belief would have to come tumbling down. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628/36 "2004-01-01T06:10:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*[Monty Python] They weren’t _quite_ dead [/Monty Python] 😉 > > fair enough but Jesus was supposedly cold on a slab for at least a day and a half. > \*\* That still doesn’t make it impossible, though. Despite wakes/sitting up with the dead people were buried alive before the days of embalming. I’m not saying Jesus was really still alive, but how sophisticated could determining death have been 2000 years ago? ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628/37 "2004-01-01T06:21:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > All and all, it’s not necessarily a very big important point. If Joseph turned out to have actually knocked Mary up the old fashioned way, it’s not like the entire edifice of Christian belief would have to come tumbling down. It’s a very big point when Christian’s believe that Jesus is G-d. Although, they admit that they can’t really explain it. A “mystery”, you know. Unless G-d turned Jesus into G-d later? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628/38 "2004-01-01T06:52:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elfkin477 \* > \*\*That still doesn’t make it impossible, though. Despite wakes/sitting up with the dead people were buried alive before the days of embalming. I’m not saying Jesus was really still alive, but how sophisticated could determining death have been 2000 years ago? \*\* Well they did slice him open with a sword. I would say that crucifixion + getting reamed with a sword = dead, at least without some sophisticated medical equipment…and Jesus was allegedly just as sound as a pound when he woke up (except that he could use his hand as a whistle).\* \*credit for this joke goes to the late Sam Kinison ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628/39 "2004-01-01T07:19:24Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s a very big point when Christian’s believe that Jesus is G-d. Really? Why is it a big point because of this? What does that have to do with anything in the end? Is God afraid of penises? > [@](#): > > Although, they admit that they can’t really explain it. A “mystery”, you know. Unless G-d turned Jesus into G-d later? Some do in fact think that. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628/40 "2004-01-01T07:31:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > Really? Why is it a big point because of this? What does that have to do with anything in the end? Is God afraid of penises? No, the penis and the giraffe were perfect indications of G-d’s sense of humor.🙂 > [@](#): > > Some do in fact think that. Well last I heard G-d always was. He wasn’t created. And the verse in Genesis “Let us make man in OUR image.” is cited to prove the whole trinity thing. Someone should probably make up their mind. Do you have specific scripture that indicates that G-d turned Jesus into himself later on? It really does matter if Jesus wasn’t G-d and he’s being worshipped. Word has it G-d gets a little testy when we’re worshipping other gods. If I’m stepping on some belief of yours, I’m sorry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-virgin-birth/221628.md?page=3)