# One week to go -- one last Obama v. McCain thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2008, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761 "2008-10-27T14:25:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761/41 "2008-10-28T06:23:22Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > who is stridently pro-choice Not that I think you’ll care one way or another, but for those lurkers who might. . . > [@](#): > > [NameBright - Coming Soon](http://www.prolifeproobama.com/plpo_welcome.htm) > > . . . > > As Ronald Reagan’s legal counsel and as a dean and professor at Catholic University and Notre Dame, I have worked to put the law on the side of life where it belongs. > > But after 35 years, a new approach is needed. Too many unborn lives are being lost as we wait for judges to get it right. Barack Obama’s strengthening of support for prenatal care, health care, maternity leave, and adoption will make the difference. Studies confirm it. > > . . . > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Barack Obama** > > . . . > > This brings me to my second point. Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. \*\*I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God’s will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all. \*\* > > Now this is going to be difficult for some who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, as many evangelicals do. But in a pluralistic democracy, we have no choice. Politics depends on our ability to persuade each other of common aims based on a common reality. It involves the compromise, the art of what’s possible. At some fundamental level, religion does not allow for compromise. It’s the art of the impossible. If God has spoken, then followers are expected to live up to God’s edicts, regardless of the consequences. To base one’s life on such uncompromising commitments may be sublime, but to base our policy making on such commitments would be a dangerous thing. And if you doubt that, let me give you an example. > > We all know the story of Abraham and Isaac. Abraham is ordered by God to offer up his only son, and without argument, he takes Isaac to the mountaintop, binds him to an altar, and raises his knife, prepared to act as God has commanded. > > Of course, in the end God sends down an angel to intercede at the very last minute, and Abraham passes God’s test of devotion. > > But it’s fair to say that if any of us leaving this church saw Abraham on a roof of a building raising his knife, we would, at the very least, call the police and expect the Department of Children and Family Services to take Isaac away from Abraham. We would do so because we do not hear what Abraham hears, do not see what Abraham sees, true as those experiences may be. So the best we can do is act in accordance with those things that we all see, and that we all hear, be it common laws or basic reason. > > \ > > So we all have some work to do here. But I am hopeful that we can bridge the gaps that exist and overcome the prejudices each of us bring to this debate. And I have faith that millions of believing Americans want that to happen. No matter how religious they may or may not be, people are tired of seeing faith used as a tool of attack. They don’t want faith used to belittle or to divide. They’re tired of hearing folks deliver more screed than sermon. Because in the end, that’s not how they think about faith in their own lives. > > So let me end with just one other interaction I had during my campaign. A few days after I won the Democratic nomination in my U.S. Senate race, I received an email from a doctor at the University of Chicago Medical School that said the following: > > “Congratulations on your overwhelming and inspiring primary win. I was happy to vote for you, and I will tell you that I am seriously considering voting for you in the general election. I write to express my concerns that may, in the end, prevent me from supporting you.” > > The doctor described himself as a Christian who understood his commitments to be “totalizing.” His faith led him to a strong opposition to abortion and gay marriage, although he said that his faith also led him to question the idolatry of the free market and quick resort to militarism that seemed to characterize much of the Republican agenda. > > But the reason the doctor was considering not voting for me was not simply my position on abortion. Rather, he had read an entry that my campaign had posted on my website, which suggested that I would fight “right-wing ideologues who want to take away a woman’s right to choose.” The doctor went on to write: > > “I sense that you have a strong sense of justice…and I also sense that you are a fair minded person with a high regard for reason…Whatever your convictions, if you truly believe that those who oppose abortion are all ideologues driven by perverse desires to inflict suffering on women, then you, in my judgment, are not fair-minded…You know that we enter times that are fraught with possibilities for good and for harm, times when we are struggling to make sense of a common polity in the context of plurality, when we are unsure of what grounds we have for making any claims that involve others…\*\*I do not ask at this point that you oppose abortion, only that you speak about this issue in fair-minded words.” > > Fair-minded words. \*\* > > So I looked at my website and found the offending words. In fairness to them, my staff had written them using standard Democratic boilerplate language to summarize my pro-choice position during the Democratic primary, at a time when some of my opponents were questioning my commitment to protect Roe v. Wade. > > \*\*Re-reading the doctor’s letter, though, I felt a pang of shame. It is people like him who are looking for a deeper, fuller conversation about religion in this country. They may not change their positions, but they are willing to listen and learn from those who are willing to speak in fair-minded words. Those who know of the central and awesome place that God holds in the lives of so many, and who refuse to treat faith as simply another political issue with which to score points. > > So I wrote back to the doctor, and I thanked him for his advice. The next day, I circulated the email to my staff and changed the language on my website to state in clear but simple terms my pro-choice position. And that night, before I went to bed, I said a prayer of my own - a prayer that I might extend the same presumption of good faith to others that the doctor had extended to me. > \*\* > . . . From his [Call to Renewal Keynote Address](http://www.barackobama.com/2006/06/28/call_to_renewal_keynote_address.php). Not exactly the words of a “strident” man. Barack Obama is not the man you insist on painting him as. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761/42 "2008-10-28T06:36:51Z")
In addition to reasons already stated by others, I support Obama because I think he’s the most intelligent man to run for the office in a long time and the person elected this year is going to need that in droves. I think he has demonstrated the ability to think more than two moves ahead (e.g. one of the most damned things about him is his “pro-infanticide” stance on an Illinois bill, when in actuality he was able to see that it was unconstitutional and would be overturned the first time it was challenged), I think he actually does care about the middle class and (more importantly) has the ability to do something about it, and he has the same values I have. He’s also an expert on constitutional law, has the presence and charisma that’s not at all a trivial asset in the 24/7 media environment, can pronounce nuclear, and isn’t running with Sarah Palin. I actually _would_ have considered McCain as he was in 2000, but McCain 2000 would never have chosen Palin as a running mate or offered to speak at Bob Jones University or seized on Bill Ayers and ignored every sign that nobody cared, and was 8 years younger. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761/43 "2008-10-28T06:56:13Z")
Slight hijack: I’m currently reading Sarah Vowell’s _Wordy Shipmates_, a lighthearted romp through Massachusetts Bay in the early 17th century. I knew who Roger Williams was before and that he was banished/founded Providence/was far better to Indians than his contemporaries/etc., but I didn’t realize what a total hard-ass he was on religious matters. Other Calvinists literally told him, many times, to lighten up, finally banishing him in a freezing winter. He wrote his sick wife “love poems” that mentioned burning in hell for taking communion with the unrighteous; this guy didn’t play when it came to serving the Lord. He also memorized huge chunks of the Bible and had several concordances of his own making. What I found interesting, and what’s relevance to this thread, is that Williams- the most puritanical of the Puritans and one of the most intellectual- was also the first American to write at length about and denounce (for half a century) any notion of religious values being enforced by the government; he was more adamantly in favor of separation of Church and State than Jefferson (or the Baptist Church whose fears TJ was addressing when he assured them they were separate). He flat out said that the Ten Commandments were NOT the foundation of civil law and was disgusted that the civil courts of Massachusetts enforced any of the first five commandments (which he saw as a strictly religious matter that should be dealt with by the congregation) and noted that the commandments that should be addressed by the courts (murder, property crimes, perjury, etc.) were handled perfectly well if not better in the Algonquin cultures who had never heard of Moses than by the literate and “saintly” English. The reason I mention this is that I think it’s interesting that this ultra hardshell religious zealot who’s been dead for 325 years and came to Massachusetts when its powerful and elite were almost exclusively Puritan had a clearer understanding of the role of civil government than Palin, or for that matter many of McCain’s supporters/Obama’s detractors. I think the Religious Right is one of the greatest threats to liberty the nation’s ever seen, that there hasn’t been such an easy rallying cry for demagogues to manipulate the masses since Rosa Parks kept her seat, and Obama is the person who has never pandered to them and would most likely stand up to them. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761/44 "2008-10-28T08:14:31Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > I hate this attitude. I pay more and I am proud to pay my share. You claim you get nothing in return but how much is it worth to you to live in this great country of ours where you can make a shitload of money. That’s just it… I DON’T live in the USA and haven’t for many years. I am not earning any money in America. If I lived there I would have no problem with paying taxes (though I might argue over the rate as anyone else would). I get very few services for my taxes here. Bush changed the way the foreign exclusion works so it is of little value anymore - my taxes have gone up in recent years. > [@askeptic](#): > > We have opportunities and luxuries that most of the world only dream about. Want to live in a country with low taxes? I hear Haiti has openings… If an American moved to Haiti, they will still be paying US taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761/45 "2008-10-28T09:37:21Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > You’re not, I am an idiot. Sorry DN. No worries. I never really felt bad about paying taxes when I lived in the US (though I think spending money on a pointless war was a terrible move). However overseas, Americans are at a huge disadvantage compared to UK, Aussie and other expats as only America taxes its people based on citizenship. Expats are such a minority, so I am not sure what Obama’s position on this is or even if he has one. I do think Obama is the best for America and for the world. Recently when departing Jordan the immigration officer only asked one question of me “Obama or McCain?”. My “Obama” answer resulted in two thumbs up and a big smile from the Jordanian officer. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761/46 "2008-10-28T10:03:13Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Not exactly the words of a “strident” man. Barack Obama is not the man you insist on painting him as. Right, right, the man who has a 100% rating from Planned Parenthood, the man who told them that the first thing he’d do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act (theoretically wiping out countless anti-abortion laws), a man who would not support the born alive bill in Illinois (then came out with ridiculous explanation after ridiculous explanation for why he did), the guy who has never, EVER stood up to the base on this issue–he’s a regular pro-life saint, on account of how purty he talks about his feelings. And pre-natal care will reduce abortions, eh? When your own cite says, “The most frequent reasons given by women seeking an abortion are that a child would limit ability to meet current responsibilities and that they cannot afford a child at this point in their lives.” If Obama supports anything that pushes woman from choosing abortion if they are initially inclined, the base will go insane, and he will not stand up to them on this issue. He never, EVER has. I have seen some ridiculous election themes in my life, but this continuing, “Obama is the better pro-life choice” takes the prize. That people can say this with a straight face is absolutely amazing to me. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761/47 "2008-10-28T10:15:36Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Presumably DN is a citizen (based on his assertion that he voted for Obama) though living abroad. That fact alone does not negate the benefits he receives as a citizen. He probably lived here for some time before deciding to work abroad and probably intends to return at some point. If not, he can always renounce his citizenship and stop paying tax here. So my original comment stands. So where does it end? He’s abroad, not collecting on any services from the US government, and yet he’s paying more in taxes a year than my MA-wielding girlfriend earns by a full $10k. What if he doesn’t ever move back? What if it’s decades from now? Surely you can appreciate how that might not seem very fair. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761/48 "2008-10-28T10:57:46Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > So where does it end? He’s abroad, not collecting on any services from the US government, and yet he’s paying more in taxes a year than my MA-wielding girlfriend earns by a full $10k. What if he doesn’t ever move back? What if it’s decades from now? Surely you can appreciate how that might not seem very fair. Exactly. I have no plans to return to the US full time. I suppose I do get some services: if the UAE is ever invaded, I am sure there is a plan to quickly evacuate all 10,000 Americans in Dubai by helicopter… and a similar plan for the Czech Republic. :rolleyes: When UK and Aussie expats pay no tax to their home country, I think it is a bit unfair that I should have to pay $50K to a country I have not lived in for more than 6 years and only visit once a year at most. I’d actually be ok with paying a very small tax which is more in line with the services I receive. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761/49 "2008-10-28T11:05:29Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > No I am not. Got busy with the rug rat and wasn’t paying attention. Presumably DN is a citizen (based on his assertion that he voted for Obama) though living abroad. That fact alone does not negate the benefits he receives as a citizen. He probably lived here for some time before deciding to work abroad and probably intends to return at some point. If not, he can always renounce his citizenship and stop paying tax here. So my original comment stands. I am a citizen as I was born in the US. I lived and worked in the US through university and worked there for a bit after that, earning a near-median wage in the 30-40K range. I have lived abroad for all of my professional life and have no plans to return. My citizenship is surely worth something and I am happy to pay a bit of tax, but I think the amount I pay relative to the services I get is way out of line. I am quite certain **askeptic** would feel the same way if he were living abroad. Taxation is probably the biggest policy issue overseas Americans have since were are at such a competitive disadvantage to our foreign colleagues. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761/50 "2008-10-28T14:31:02Z")
So you’re complaining because you want to retain your citizenship but pay less than other citizens have to? ---
**Author:** ![SaharaTea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@SaharaTea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaharaTea)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761/51 "2008-10-28T14:35:01Z")
I support Barack Obama because he is intelligent, articulate, and may actually have a chance at rebuilding some of our lost credibility on the world stage. He opposed the Iraq War from the very beginning, and unlike his opponent, doesn’t want to keep us there indefinitely. He supports a woman’s right to choose. His campaign has demonstrated calm, steady judgment while his opponents have fallen all over themselves. In the event anything should happen to him, he has a running mate whom we can actually trust at the reins. I know he’s not perfect. But the guy is inspiring and a breath of fresh air. A politician I can actually admire and say to my kids, “This is what a leader is supposed to be like.” After the last embarrassing and cynic-inducing eight years, we can’t afford _not_ to elect him. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761/52 "2008-10-28T14:50:00Z")
> [@Ensign\_Edison](#): > > So you’re complaining because you want to retain your citizenship but pay less than other citizens have to? Yes. Americans overseas can’t make use of roads, police, fire departments, schools or most any other US government service, thus I think it is reasonable that we should pay less. It is as if you were working in one state, then moved to another state and planned to never return to the first state, but still had to pay tax there (and in your new state) for the rest of your life. If you lived in 7 or 8 states throughout your life, do you think you should continue paying tax to all of them? Brits, Aussies, Kiwis and nearly all other nationalities pay zero tax to their home country whilst living abroad.. only paying tax to the country where they live. I think one should only pay tax in the locality where they live. I’d love to know what Obama and McCain think, but American expats are brushed aside and don’t matter although there are more of us than there are citizens of many states… about 4 million Americans overseas these days. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761/53 "2008-10-28T15:26:06Z")
When you live overseas, something like the first $90,000 of your salary is not taxable by the U.S., as long as you meet certain conditions of overseas residence. Most countries also have tax treaties with the U.S., so any money you pay there can be deducted from U.S. taxes. If you’re still paying taxes, then it means you’re doing pretty well, or maybe all your income comes from non-salary sources? If you think your citizenship isn’t providing you any benefits, I suppose you could always give it up. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761/54 "2008-10-28T15:45:42Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Slight hijack: > I’m currently reading Sarah Vowell’s _Wordy Shipmates_, a lighthearted romp through Massachusetts Bay in the early 17th century. I knew who Roger Williams was before and that he was banished/founded Providence/was far better to Indians than his contemporaries/etc., but I didn’t realize what a total hard-ass he was on religious matters. . . > > What I found interesting, and what’s relevance to this thread, is that Williams- the most puritanical of the Puritans and one of the most intellectual- was also the first American to write at length about and denounce (for half a century) any notion of religious values being enforced by the government; . . . Interestingly, I was just at a conference on Friday that was discussing Roger Williams, and religious freedom. It is often overlooked that Williams’ main point in separating church and state was to keep the state out of the church, and not the other way around as is usually the case today. One of the speakers mentioned that it was the Baptists of Virginia, specifically John Leland, who got James Madison to promise to work on passing the Bill of Rights, specifically the separation of church and state, because they were looking to disestablish the Episcopal Church as Virginia’s state sanctioned church. While there was a compromise afoot to allow state support of other churches in Virginia at the time, the Baptists did not want any state sanction of religion. Too bad Jerry Falwell missed that part of the story. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761/55 "2008-10-28T15:45:59Z")
> [@Ensign\_Edison](#): > > So you’re complaining because you want to retain your citizenship but pay less than other citizens have to? Yeah, I don’t get it. A lot of people don’t avail of themselves of the same services as others, based on their personal choices. If you want citizenship, there’s no reason to be treated any differently from any other citizen. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761/56 "2008-10-28T15:51:53Z")
The repubs have aided and abetted the looting of America. They have spent 8 years killing oversight and regulation. The whole world is paying the price for their excesses. They have pushed the wealth gap to unheard of extreme. They have been war mongers and lied to attack sovereign countries. They have waged war and refused to tax to pay for it. No one in our history ever did such a dumb thing. They have ruined our economy and horribly increased the national debt. They have destroyed the world respect for the US. They have tortured and spied on their own people while lying about it ,over and over. I do not love Obama but he is not one of these people., McCain is. Obama is also a thoughtful and intelligent man. That gives some hope that he can respond intellectually to future problems. Bush and McCain have not demonstrated that ability. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761/57 "2008-10-28T16:04:56Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > When you live overseas, something like the first $90,000 of your salary is not taxable by the U.S., as long as you meet certain conditions of overseas residence. Most countries also have tax treaties with the U.S., so any money you pay there can be deducted from U.S. taxes. > > If you’re still paying taxes, then it means you’re doing pretty well, or maybe all your income comes from non-salary sources? If you think your citizenship isn’t providing you any benefits, I suppose you could always give it up. The foreign tax exclusion helps. Originally, the $85,000 exclusion worked so that the 85,001st dollar was taxed as if it was the first dollar one earned but now the 85,001st dollar is taxed at the rate pertaining to $85K so one immediately falls into the 28% range. About half of my income comes from non-salary sources so there is no foreign benefit there. I am doing better than many, but do feel like my citizenship is a liability in some ways. For example quite a few banks here refuse to open accounts for Americans because of the IRS reporting rules that they do not want to have to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761/58 "2008-10-28T16:12:32Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Yeah, I don’t get it. A lot of people don’t avail of themselves of the same services as others, based on their personal choices. If you want citizenship, there’s no reason to be treated any differently from any other citizen. I can see this to a point. But in the many countries where a tax treaty does not apply (a quick Google shows tax treaties only exist in about 1/3 of countries), Americans are put at a huge disadvantage where trying to compete with other nationals. e.g it makes no sense to pay 35% of my income to the US and then 45% to the country I’d be working in… I’d lose 80% of my income to tax. I honestly do not see this any differently than if one lived in San Francisco, one does not pay New York income tax, even though you can freely go drive on New York roads and make use of government services there. Obviously not everyone will agree with me… and that’s fine. I’ll sit here overseas paying for services I’ll never use, but at least I can get health insurance here. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761/59 "2008-10-28T16:30:37Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Right, right, the man who has a 100% rating from Planned Parenthood, the man who told them that the first thing he’d do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act (theoretically wiping out countless anti-abortion laws), a man who would not support the born alive bill in Illinois (then came out with ridiculous explanation after ridiculous explanation for why he did), the guy who has never, EVER stood up to the base on this issue–he’s a regular pro-life saint, on account of how purty he talks about his feelings. And pre-natal care will reduce abortions, eh? When your own cite says, “The most frequent reasons given by women seeking an abortion are that a child would limit ability to meet current responsibilities and that they cannot afford a child at this point in their lives.” > > If Obama supports anything that pushes woman from choosing abortion if they are initially inclined, the base will go insane, and he will not stand up to them on this issue. He never, EVER has. I have seen some ridiculous election themes in my life, but this continuing, “Obama is the better pro-life choice” takes the prize. That people can say this with a straight face is absolutely amazing to me. Like I said, not that you’d care. Supporting a woman’s right to protect her body from government intrusion is not the same thing as supporting killing babies. John McCain has NO PLAN to do anything about making contraceptives more available and affordable, NO PLAN to improve child care availability and affordability so women are freer to CHOOSE to have their babies, NO PLAN to improve ADOPTION options to encourage more women to make that their CHOICE. Caring about life means caring about ALL life, especially those lives that are already living, breathing and struggling to survive. If you think for one moment that a repeal of Roe would magically eliminate any and all abortions, you’re deluding yourself. Better that we create a society and environment where abortion is rare and only opted for when medically necessary. But John McCain doesn’t care about the “health” of the women involved. He’ll do absolutely nothing, NOTHING, that will have any realistic effect on abortion rates, but you’d rather have someone who shares your philosophy, even if it’ll never, ever actually be legislated, than someone who’ll actually DO something to try to save as many of the unborn as possible. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Frank Schaeffer** > > [Frank! As A Former Pro-Life Leader How \Dare\ You Support Pro-Choice Obama? | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/frank-as-a-former-pro-lif_b_119435.html) > > . . . > > I know rather a lot about the politics of the “life issues.” And I know you know that is true because you are calling me a traitor for supporting Senator Obama because of my leadership in the early stages of the pro-life movement. > > You also know that without my late Evangelical leader father Francis Schaeffer’s and my work (teamed up with C. Everett Koop) there would have been no Evangelical/Republican pro-life movement as it emerged in the mid 1970s. And on a personal note, having gotten my girlfriend pregnant when we were teens, I also know a little about the heartache that goes along with a very unplanned pregnancy. Fortunately we received the sort of support that made keeping our daughter Jessica possible. It could have gone another way. > > That said…I know (as you pro-lifers do if you’re honest) that the Republicans have milked the abortion issue, as have the Evangelical and Roman Catholic leadership, for every dime it’s worth for fundraising, votes, power and empire-building, **without changing much if anything**. As I said, I also am fully aware that Senator Obama is pro-choice. > > . . . > > That said… First, a nod to reality: even if Roe were reversed (it won’t be no matter who is president) the abortion pill and the acceptance of at least some types of legal abortion by most Americans guarantees there will be access to abortion. Besides, on a state-by-state basis abortion would remain legal in most states no matter what the court does. **And as we have seen the Republicans haven’t really changed anything in thirty years**. > > So what do we who find abortion abhorrent do if we want to deal in reality rather than fantasies and slogans of winner-take-all propaganda? The reality is that **we need to foster a climate in which we can reduce the number of abortions and also keep the moral – rather than legal – debate alive**. > > . . . > > The effort to reduce abortions will be more possible in the Obama era than in a continuation of the hardhearted Bush presidency with McCain. This is all about tone and moral leadership, not law. > > At heart of the abortion reality is this: we are a consumerist society with a heart of stone when it comes to the poor, who account for four times the national average of people having abortions, mostly because of economic needs that Republicans don’t lift a finger to address. And we still denigrate women and female sexuality. > > . . . > > When it comes to the issue of abortion there is another side besides legality/illegality: the nature of our country. > > What kind of care do we provide to mothers and children? What is our educational system like? Is healthcare available to all? Do our preschool programs and everything from paternal and maternal leave to the economic well-being of our country come first? Or do we argue about abortion rights while we live lives of such supreme selfish decadence that the nature of our country means that no matter what we do with the laws about abortion life will not be valued? > > . . . > > As a born-again Christ-centered believer Obama offers a spiritual vision of life founded on the _Sermon On the Mount_. It is the freedom of “we.” It is the same view of freedom that my Marine son learned in boot camp: that the person standing next to you is more important than you are. That concept of freedom is more in keeping with valuing all human life. It will create a climate more friendly to mothers and children. > > . . . > > In Obama’s America arguments for compassion for the unborn and all the other “least of these” will resonate regardless of Obama’s stance on the legality of abortion. Roe is not the point. Our hearts are the point. The unborn like everyone else will do better in a country that puts people, the earth, and our future ahead of greed, oil company profits and jingoistic rule by fear. > > I will be voting for Senator Obama and am fighting for his election _because_ I am pro-life. And for the record, for those who’re paying attention in the background and who actually care, it’s really disingenuous of you to misrepresent Barack Obama’s position on the Illinois bill regarding late term abortions. FACT: Illinois already HAS A LAW IN PLACE that requires doctors to take live-saving measures on babies born alive in a late-term abortion; they didn’t NEED another one. FACT: the proposed legislation was UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Why would anyone want a legislator, let alone a President, who’s willing to sign legislation that is unconstitutional? That’s insane. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761/60 "2008-10-28T16:35:15Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > e.g it makes no sense to pay 35% of my income to the US and then 45% to the country I’d be working in… I’d lose 80% of my income to tax. It must make sense, because despite your complaints, you would still rather retain citizenship than stop paying for it. I guess you support a system under which citizens only pay taxes for services they personally use? Because as pointed out before, obviously, many, many Americans who live here don’t use the services their tax money goes to supporting for the civic good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/one-week-to-go-one-last-obama-v-mccain-thread/469761.md?page=4)