Wildest Bill, do you have any intention of giving the answers you promised?
-Ben
Hey Sua sorry to take so long getting back to you. But yes, in my belief I find a OWG to be inherently evil and the anti-christ will use such an opportunity to take over the world. As far as the second part of your question. Man congress can’t even take care of this nations problems much less the worlds. 
So yes, I would object to that I pay enough taxes as it is.
It is very good talking to you too. And I have some good news for you I have gone almost two years now without being sued.
Ben,
I am not sure what question you are refering to but I will answer if you don’t mind telling me again.
Found a lost document? You’re not talking about the Pact of Umar from the 7th century are you, the peace pact with the Syrian Xtians after the Muslims whomped the Byzantines? While hardly a model of tolerance by modern standards, by standards of the time – recognition of right to worship and other factors-- if was a pretty good deal. Lot better than the standard fate of the day, such as the contemporary Xtian’s nasty habit of massacring heretics.
Anyways, you seem to suggest this is some kind of Elders of Zion sorta thingy, in fact it was a peace treaty between the defeated community and the winners which later served as a model for the dhimmi status if I recall correctly.
Nope, a male muslim can marry any woman of a ‘religion of the book,’ although the children have to be raised Muslim by religious law. Muslim women however are restricted to Muslim men.
Ah the Almohades are not a person, it is the spanish deformation of the Arabic al-muwahhideen (affirmers of the oneness of god, roughly), a fairly puritanical sect which arose in the Sahara among, if memory serves, the Sanhaja berbers. Eventually they got their way up to al-andalus as Islamic spain was known, at the invitation of one of the warring Emirates as I recall. I don’t recall that the al-muwahhideen ever issued any such edict or fatwa in regards to the jews, either in Morocco or in Andalous. If they did it mustn’t have been effective as there were whole bloody tribes of Berber jews right up to modern times and the Andalous as I recall remained chock full of jews until the reconquista. In fact, to my recollection, both xtians and jews were pretty much left alone during the whole almohad incident as they were rather more concerned with stomping on their enemies with real power, Abbasid pretenders and the like. I rather doubt, in addition that any convert or die order would have been issued on two bases, first practical, dhimmis paid a higher tax rate and historical records show few Muslim governments ever showed much zeal in converting taxpayers and second, as any purist will tell you, the Quran specifically forbids forced conversion. Given the puritanical nature of the movement, unorthodox and fiscally unconservative actions strike me as unlikely.
However, not being an expert, perhaps you have some source material? (Afraid none of mine is in English nor at hand)
Found a lost document? You’re not talking about the Pact of Umar from the 7th century are you, the peace pact with the Syrian Xtians after the Muslims whomped the Byzantines? While hardly a model of tolerance by modern standards, by standards of the time – recognition of right to worship and other factors-- if was a pretty good deal. Lot better than the standard fate of the day, such as the contemporary Xtian’s nasty habit of massacring heretics.
Anyways, you seem to suggest this is some kind of Elders of Zion sorta thingy, in fact it was a peace treaty between the defeated community and the winners which later served as a model for the dhimmi status if I recall correctly.
Nope, a male muslim can marry any woman of a ‘religion of the book,’ although the children have to be raised Muslim by religious law. Muslim women however are restricted to Muslim men.
Ah the Almohades are not a person, it is the spanish deformation of the Arabic al-muwahhideen (affirmers of the oneness of god, roughly), a fairly puritanical sect which arose in the Sahara among, if memory serves, the Sanhaja berbers. Eventually they got their way up to al-andalus as Islamic spain was known, at the invitation of one of the warring Emirates as I recall. I don’t recall that the al-muwahhideen ever issued any such edict or fatwa in regards to the jews, either in Morocco or in Andalous. If they did it mustn’t have been effective as there were whole bloody tribes of Berber jews right up to modern times and the Andalous as I recall remained chock full of jews until the reconquista. In fact, to my recollection, both xtians and jews were pretty much left alone during the whole almohad incident as they were rather more concerned with stomping on their enemies with real power, Abbasid pretenders and the like. I rather doubt, in addition that any convert or die order would have been issued on two bases, first practical, dhimmis paid a higher tax rate and historical records show few Muslim governments ever showed much zeal in converting taxpayers and second, as any purist will tell you, the Quran specifically forbids forced conversion. Given the puritanical nature of the movement, unorthodox and fiscally unconservative actions strike me as unlikely.
However, not being an expert, perhaps you have some source material? (Afraid none of mine is in English nor at hand)
These are the questions to which I believe you were referring:
While we’re at it, I’d like to continue our conversation from IMHO on evolution. Email me, if you like; I can’t email you because your address isn’t given in your profile.
-Ben
There’s also this one:
-Ben
History tells us the vast percentage of unification is done by war. Barbarian’s synopsis might not be too far from the truth.
One of the major stumbling blocks to world government is culture. I’m living in Hong Kong, so right now I’m at the crossroads of two major cultural influences, the West, and Sinic culture. I’m amazed by misconceptions that people have about China and Chinese when I go to internet bulletin boards like this one. Somone once asked me if it was true that all Chinese killed their daughters. I asked in resposnse if it was true that all Americans took more than one wife, just like some people do in Salt Lake City. And it works both ways - people here have enormous misconceptions about the West, and especially America. And this is Hong Kong, in this day and age of global communications, let alone Xian or Tienjin or somewhere even more rural.
Extrapolate this, to all cultural rivalries. People mistrust and misunderstand each other too much for OWG to become a reality.
Someone else made the comment on the first page that there is already one world government. It certainly isn’t the UN (not while Kofi Annan takes small inexpensive planes while he is touring - never understood conservative American issues with the UN being a world government, but anyway), but neither is it the US. Americans have a misconception as to the importance of their country upon world affairs, and especially culture. Just because someone eats McDonalds doesn’t mean they are part of the US hegemony, or support democracy and free market capitalism. The US is the most powerful country militarily and economically, and throws its diplomatic weight around in a heavy handed fashion. But even this has limitations: A great example is New Zealand and the introduction of parallel importation there. The US Trade Representative muttered about imposing Special 301 sanctions upon NZ, because parallel importation threatens the profits of US businesses (briefly, a company can sell a product in one market for one price and in another market for a lesser price. Parallel importation means buying the goods at the cheaper price and importing them into the country in which the company sells the goods at a higher price = undercutting the company’s selling price). Yet what has happened? The US don’t want to offend NZ, so the net result is nothing.
This is just one example of what happens when its allies don’t toe the party line: nothing. People who fear the US as a world government are misguided because they see Coca Cola sold everywhere. This isn’t American culture - its a consumerable.
The two cultures rapidly expanding at the moment is Islam (geographically and in population) and China (in cultural and military assertiveness). Islam is just as missionary as Christianity, and China has populations abroad who keep in touch and do business through the so called “bamboo network”. But ultimately, people wouldn’t accept the lead from either of those cultures exerting a world government, because they are just too different, just as the West is to them.
** I do seem to have misremebered the Pacts origin. I was right about its discriminatory nature. Quoting from Jewish Literacy by Joseph Telushkin “Their status was still superior to that accorded nonmonotheists. In areas conquered by Muslim, such people were offered the choice of conversion to Islam or death. Jews and Christians, or dhimmis as they were referred to in Islam, were permitted to practice their religion. Their lives were regulated by the pact of Umar, a document assumed to date from around 720. It mandated that dhimmis acknowledge their subservience to Muslims in many ways. As was the case with blacks in the days of the segregationist ‘Jim Crow’ laws in the South, Jews and Christians were obligated to ‘rise from {their} seats when {Muslims} wish to sit’. Both Jews and Christians were forbidden from converting anyone to their religions, and were forbidden from trying to prevent any of their adherents from converting to Islam. Dhimmis even had to vow not raise their voices when following the dead at funerals. A particularly cruel restriction forbade them to ride on horses or mules; this was considered incompatible with their low status. They were permitted to ride only donkeys and were forbidden to use saddles.” This does not sound like a “pretty good deal” to me.
I said that some Muslims would forbid their children to marry outside Islam, not that all Muslims placed these restrictions on marriage or that such an edict was in the Quran. I doubt, for example, that a member of the Taliban would allow their children to marry a Jew or Christian.
**
**
Telushkin again "Unfortunately, when the Golden Age of Spanish Jewry did end, it was with a bang, not a whimper. In the twelfth century, the Muslim Almohades, who had come to power in North Africa, gained control of Spain. Suddenly, the prosperous and successful Jewish community found itself confronted with three unpalatable alternatives:conversion to Islam, exile, or death." Zealots of any faith have the habit of ignoring passages they disagree with. The Crusades are an excellent example. Claiming to serve the will of a god proclaiming love and peace, Christians marched to the holy land and killed everyone who got their way.
Jewish Literacy by Rabbi Joseph Telushkin published by Willam Morrow and Company Inc 1991
To be honest I really don’t exactly how they function. I just know they are a panal of constituents of other countries that see over military affairs.
Well eventually the anti christ is to be indwelt with Satan and he is going to have everyone take alligence to him by taking a mark. If you don’t he will kill you, and if you do your fate is sealed to go to Hell(literally).
[quote]
Why is it good to be an American before being a human?[/uote]
Well you are a human no matter where you live. So is it better to be “human” living here or say living in Russia or China?
Not yet but it could be.
Keep giving it(the UN) more power(even nuclear) and it could become the org that leads the one world govt.
Don’t know for sure.
The internet like anything can be used for good or bad.
And one world govt would be just a giant taxing authority that would tax the hell out of us and then eventually try to send us there.
Dave, you are very correct about misinterpretations and misunderstandings between cultures. I am from Canada, but now in the States, and I’ve heard dumb comments about both cultures from both sides.
And, you are certainly right – consumerables don’t imply culture. But, please, just compare/contrast life today with life 100 years ago. As a BROAD generalization, the world has become more similar. I admit that I don’t know chinese culture well enough to draw examples – so I’ll leave it up to you. But, in Canada, almost every francophone now also speaks english – 100 years ago, very few did. In Canada, people are starting to lose their accents, and sometimes it seems like the only people who talk differently have either A: Been in a small community, B: Have no television, or C: is over 65.
I mean, 100 years ago, people were limited to how far their horse could travel. People didn’t move 10 places in their life, and their circle of friends was much more static. And, I would guess that most places in the world, in a big city, you can get italian, mexican, and chinese food. Talk about culinary representative – 100 years ago, only extremely cosmipolitan cities would have such restaurants.
And there is much cross polination of ideas – television being one obvious example. America is stealing shows from other places as quickly as it can, but they are in turn stolen. Iron Chef ( which I believe is Japanese ) became a big hit everywhere. I’m not going to pretend it was a vast cultural exchange causing immediate utopia – but it is much better than the Iron Curtain. =:>
And, so extrapolating from different data – 100 years from now, we will all be much much more similar. And, so, hopefully, we will be able to make treaties easier, and have peace easier.
Me’Corva
Wildest Bill, are you afraid of the OWG? I only ask, because, it seems odd with what you just posted. I mean, if a OWG exists, we should theoretically be able to tell. And, if some OWG official comes by with a big brand, why don’t you just say no? Extreme Unction, or whatever your god requires, and then bang, your dead, in heaven. End of story.
Or, are you just trying to decide if you’ll be a martyr in your lifetime?
BTW, it really does seem a little … unfortunate that everyone is debating whether or not a OWG will exist, but it’s clear that most of us are debating whether or not a Governing Body will exist, and not whether or not some sort of ghostly EVIL OWG (as you seem to believe) will exist. So, even though I think that the OWG scenario you propose is completely unlikely, I do believe a GB is likely, assuming we don’t kill ourselves. So, maybe to be fair to us and yourselves, you should post what else the OWG will be like ( I seem to remember something about 666 and (??)no money(??)-- but frankly, I’m a bit weak on my EOTWAWKI )? Then maybe we could honestly debate the scenario that you propose will happen. (*)
Me’Corva
(* It’s been awhile since I read your OP, so if I’ve mischaracterized you, I apologize – it was based on stupidity, not malice. Please correct me and continue.)
**
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=57587&tocid=0&query=nato
What part of NATO do you find offensive?
Once again, WB, I find your attitude very frustrating. You’ll get all steamed over how NATO could be a tool of the Antichrist, but you don’t even know what NATO is. It’s the same way with evolution- you talk about how evolution isn’t some game to you and how it’s all part of Satan’s Cosmic Battle, but even when you state that you need to read up on evolution so that you’ll be an effective soldier in Christ’s army, you never actually get off your butt and do anything for Jesus.
**
Thanks, WB- now I know what you’re talking about. Your earlier comments indicated that you want non-Christians to have extra time to meet Jesus, and therefore you want to forestall the coming of the Antichrist. Does that mean that you believe that God does not choose the timing of the end of the world, but that the human race does?
**
What’s your point? Your position is better than that of a homeless man, but there are homeless people in America. Instead of valuing patriotism, why not value wealth and dissociate yourself from the poor?
**
Why the UN as opposed to any other group? If the US got more power, it could become a OWG too.
**
Then why is it different from a cashless economy? A cashless economy, like anything, can be used for good and bad.
It seems to me that on the one hand, you declare that you don’t want to discuss Last-Days issues, but on the other hand, that’s all you talk about.
Is this statement based on a rational analysis of geopolitics, or is it purely a matter of religious faith?
-Ben
Wildest Bill:
I live in China, and can honestly say I’m a human and enjoying my life.
I’ve been to the US once, and might go back again next year for a friend’s wedding in Texas, but generally regard the place as too dangerous with too many guns.
Its a matter of perspective isn’t it?
Me’Corva, I understand what you’re saying, but I’m afraid that on the whole its not true.
Non-Western cultures are very resilient to change. With the end of the Cold War, people are using their cultures as a means of identifying themselves (as opposed to left-right ideology). This means that non-Western cultures are becoming increasingly resistent to change.
People can travel more, but outside of the West, they generally don’t. Most Asians I see abroad are on business or are affluent. Asians use the internet, but they use Chinese or Japanese sites in their own languages. If any one posting here is from China or Japan, a big “ni hao” or “hajimemashite” to you, but I doubt I’ll get a response.
American TV is a consumerable. A friend of mine went to Jordan recently. He tells me Jordanians are quite curious about the West - they view it as an alien planet with a different lifestyle and culture. Swimming pools, movie stars.
I think that Anglophones are becoming more similar - I really hear it when I talk to young kids in Australia, as I think their accents are becoming less broad and more American from exposure to TV. But don’t confuse Australia (which is basically the US without the War of Independence) with China or even South Africa.
When the West dominated most of the world in the 1910s and following the conclusion of WW1, then I think the time would have been ripe for a world government. But the West is in decline - other cultures are becoming more assertive, more proud of their cultures, and the balance of power is evening and becoming more multi-polar. Multipolarity is no environment for a world government.
Dave, it’s fascinating to get your opinion. You are right that I should seperate Western cultures, including Canada and Australia from other cultures – since it is clear that western culture is homogenizing much faster than other cultures. And, your point about people using their culture as barriers is definately true.
However, maybe I can convince you with more examples. You mention that most people who travel abroad are businessmen or wealthy, and that is no doubt true. But, answer me this: what percentage of your friends don’t have a friend who is an american? 25%? 50%? 70%? I doubt it’d be much higher. Compare that to 100 years ago.
You travelled to the states, and are doing it again. You saw it as dangerous – maybe when you come for the wedding, you won’t see it as as dangerous.
Another site, which is, I warn you, not known for it’s accuracy, attempts to describe Chinese youth who are relatively affluent and computer literate at
http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/05/30/china_web/index.html
I recognize that this is no more than a small step towards similarity, but it is a small step.
And, to be fair, America is changing as well. If you asked my friends how many of us had friends who were from China, Japan, Hong Kong, or Vietnam, many of us could point to at least a friend from some. Again – this is not a great achievement – but compare it to the past to see how different it was.
America also takes cues from other cultures as well. I mentioned restaurants – but look at management style. America tried very hard to learn the lessons of the Japanese management style in the early 80s – it wasn’t terribly successful – but it made american firms more like Japanese firms. Again – not huge steps, but baby steps.
And, yes, I really like that other cultures are asserting their dominance. If there does become a OWCulture, then it won’t be WASP with Christmas, Thanksgiving, and halloween as it’s only holidays. Hurrah I say, hurrah.
I look forward to hearing your views. I think we are both looking at different facets of the same picture, and so it doesn’t surprise me that we don’t agree - but I’m fascinated to see what facets you consider important.
Me’Corva
Thanks Me’Corva.
There seem to be a couple of bases to your point:
-
international trade of cultural commodities break down cultural barriers. I think this isn’t true, as I’ve said. McDonalds hasn’t brought the rule of law to China. Someone can watch Ally McBeal in Shanghai, and then go off to arrange their daughter’s wedding.
-
international communication break down cultural barriers. I agree that Chinese people are very familiar with the internet - internet usage in China has increased by 300% since 1998, and 98.7% of Singaporean companies have internet connection. My point was: where are the Chinese people on this very Western website? Where are the Jordanians? Even the French aren’t here, and they’re Western, just not Anglophones. They have their own websites, and they generally don’t interact. People aren’t talking to each other, outside of their respective cultures. And when they do…have a look at the racism and xenophobia on http://www.icered.com, a site for Chinese and Western professionals in Hong Kong. And look at the current American-Chinese hacker cyberwar. The internet is hardly turning out to be a cultural bridge.
Don’t forget, only 10 million peple watch CNN. That’s a small number, out of 5 billion.
- international travel has broken down cultural barriers. If the bulk of people did travel this might be true. I just think that the overwhelming majority of the world’s population don’t or can’t travel internationally.
With the greatest of respect, I think your perspective is slightly skewed. Western countries tend to be multicultural. Its a good thing that you have friends from other cultures. But don’t think that people in other countries do too. Japan is very homogeneous. China has a whole heap of minorities, but they tend to be regionalised, and share a basic Sinic/Confucian culture. I doubt many Syrians have foreign friends.
The most important point I think I’m making is that in the void of an ideological conflict, people are turning back to their cultures, and becoming extremists about them. The recent issue with the US spy plane on Hainan Island was viewed not so much as a Western-Communist conflict, but an American-Chinese conflict. There is regional Chinese enthusiasm for the Beijing Olympics, not Communist enthusaism. Scotland and Wales now have their own parliaments. The Basque are increasingly pushing for independence from Spain, with the Catalonians close behind. The Corsicans want independence from France. Australia recently almost became a republic, which requires further separation from England. The people in Aceh in Indonesia want independence. The Abu Sayyaf want Mindanao to be a Muslim country independent from the Philippines. The Uighars in Muslim western China want independence. And so on.
How can there be any prospect of OWG in the midst of all of this splintering?
PS I have two Texan friends, who I met while travelling and a few internet acquaintances who I’m fond of. The bulk of my friends are Australian, very well travlled, and to the best of my knowledge have no American friends. I have some Japanese friends because I lived there, and I’m certain they have no American friends. My wife is a Swede and she has no American friends. But even if they did, would this mean that they would start promoting the right to bear arms (something distinct to US culture)? I don’t think so.
Hmmmmm…I think the fact that slavery continued to exist on Tatooine is good circumstantial evidence that the Republic didn’t encompass the entire human race. The Republic in Star Wars did have numerous non-human races though, unlike the two examples I cited, which were humans only.
Thinking about aliens has led me to reconsider my position. If an alien race ever presented a credible and dire threat to the existence of humanity, it is conceivable to me that we would unite under a single government.
Discriminatory, indeed. I never said otherwise. It is after all a peace treaty between a defeated nation/community and conquerors. Nota Bene discriminatory by ** modern late 20th – early 21st century standards **, however by * contemporary standards * which rather sanctioned the bloody suppression if not annihilation of competing cults or communities, not a bad deal. Context. Context is important. It’s not for nothing that various non-orthodox Xtian and Jewish communities preferred Muslim rule, with all its imperfections to Byzantine or other rule. This is not to claim any great perfection on the part of the califates, only rather to emphasize that unfortunately contemporary standards of conduct were quite nasty in general.
I’m not terribly impressed with the historicity of your source.
Shrug, perhaps. Not sure there’s much evidence of folks forbidding their boys to marry foreign women. I wasjust reading a recent article about some Gulf Emirates experiencing a problem of extremely large numbers of their men marrying non-Muslims from Asia. No talk of banning or preventing such, but of offering subventions for marrying local girls. The other way around of course is a bit of a stoning offense.
Well, in re the Almohades I am not trying to suggest they were a bunch of sweeties (they were ruthless bastids like any successful conquering movement of the day), only that my readings – admittedly hazily recalled – from works specializing in the period and region did not suggest to me that the Almohades ever actually expelled the Jews from al-Andalous or forced conversion. I can’t recall any mention of such a decree as mentioned in your source. I could of course be misrecalling or have forgotten, but even in this case given what I recall about the overall period it strikes me that it must not have been seriously applied insofar as one has a substantial Jewish community right through to the Reconquista
Not that I am questioning the general thrust of your comments in regard to the thread. It just struck me the historical details were not properly contextualized.
Jewish Literacy by Rabbi Joseph Telushkin published by Willam Morrow and Company Inc 1991 **
[/QUOTE]
Never heard of it.
Never heard of it. **
[/QUOTE]
I'm not surprised. It's one of those books written by a member of a group and largely intended for that group. I have found no errors or revisionist history in it.
Regarding cultural homogenization bringing about peace-A suicide bomber blew up a Sbarro’s in Israel today. This is the same chain I can visit at my local mall. Despite other cultural change, religious differences remain. Other disputes can be settled based on compromise and common goals. No religion, however, will change its tenets because an arbiter suggests it.
Another poster mentioned Dune. If one reads the full series, they will find that despite colonization of distant galaxies and the passage of millenia Christianity, Judaism and Islam still fight. In fact when Moadib takes control of the empire, the one thing he is unable to change is a jyhad fought in his name.A One-World Government, will happen at aproximately the same time as people stop considering themselves American or Russian, European or African, but Earthling. For this to occur, there will probably have to be something to compare ourselves against, the feeling of Planetary patriotism won’t happen until there is a group of sentient beings, in contact with us, who can call themselves something other than “Earthling.”