Bleizdu said what I was going to say, no doubt more eloquently than I. Also, I cannot conjure an image in my mind, even of a circle or of my mother’s face. I can think deep thoughts without words or images and I don’t think either of these idiosyncrasies has limited my ability to do physics, math, software development, or any of the common activities of daily life. I wish I could visualize people and places when reading a book.
That’s really interesting. Usually the language part is the simplest; it’s the editing that’s problematic, both in time (saying stuff before I’ve reflected on it) or on paper (making it less colloquial and adherent to proper sentence structure, etc.).
Luckily, I’ve developed the capacity to think in “proper written English”, so that I don’t have to really go back to having to dramatically rewrite stuff like I sometimes did up through high school.
I also find that talking to myself out loud sometimes helps me clarify my thoughts, because hearing it makes the more ridiculous things stand out more than if they’re just bouncing around in my head.
A fascinating thread. I never realized that there are people like that, but it explains why some people tend to talk a lot.
Very strange indeed. Surely there must be some sort inner private dialogue going on. Otherwise nothing? Blink? Smooth brains?
I have heard of people who have full graphical cogitation ability, who claim to be able to see an image in their mind as though it were before their eyes. I do not have that. I can visualise things, but the images are abstracted, not graphical. Like I am halfway to seeing it. Sometimes when reading a book, I can get deeply into it, and experience the story, but the images are still far from fully graphic.
I never quite know what to make of claims like this. I have good visualization, to the point where I can use it as a reference for putting things down on paper. But it’s still, as you say, abstracted. It’s nowhere close to a visual hallucination. I wonder if some of these people are saying basically the same thing, just not describing it the same way.
Something like 1 to 4 percent of people have aphantasia, the inability to form a mental image. You can take the Vividness of Visual Imagery Test to see where you fall on the spectrum.
I can clearly see things in images in my mind if I think about them, like seeing a picture or movie. That cannot be that rare and I thought everyone did that.
When I read books it’s like a movie. I usually “cast” characters as actors I’ve seen that have appearances that fit what I’m reading and voices/accents if they are described in the book. And as I read I’m watching a movie.
That can’t be that rare.
(Though I do remember when I worked at Toys R Us in the stockrooms and subconsciously memorized some of the shelves, and could concentrate and “see” them to tell someone where things were. Like, I can almost reach out and point at things. I could even tell people how many of an item was left in stock by bringing up the image. And people did tell me that was weird. I can right now picture my kitchen cupboards as I type this and look at the dishes as they’re arranged if I try.)
You’re right. What is rare is not being able to form a mental image. As I mentioned above that is estimated to occur in only 1 to 4 percent of people.
I can do that… but my thoughts about it and everything else are in language.
What I’m struggling to understand is how someone without an inner monologue can visually or otherwise understand and think about complex concepts.
I mean, you might be able to visualize the Scientific Method by just thinking through the steps, but how do you non-verbally conceptualize and think about say… the ramifications of free speech, or about the 2nd Amendment? Or abortion rights? These things seem to be the sorts of thing that wouldn’t lend themselves to non-verbal thinking. Or if they do, it would seem to me like it might be simplistic. Maybe not; maybe there are nuances that are "visible* when non-verbally thinking about it?
I just don’t know how you’d go about it.
Yes, that is difficult for me, a language person, to grasp. But, thinking is the process of forming a mental model, which might take whatsoever form the individual finds most effective. For example, I imagine society as a structure of vectors, which might be visualized in the form of arrowhead-lines impinging on each other, and for a few, that might be the most efficient way to think about that.
At least, partially. “Inner monologue” suggests a constant flow of verbal narrative. Some people’s minds might not operate that way, yet they might move to language-based thought where it is easier to approach a question that way than their normal mode of mental function. My thought process is predominantly linguistic, but it does move to different modalities as called for.
The key thing about language is that it has allowed us to cross the boundaries of the individual and share ideas with each other, which nurtures intelligence while avoiding the limitations of hardwired knowledge. Language is merely a means of communication, not necessarily the fundamental basis for thought.
I’ll be real careful not to break board rules here…
I occasionally have taken a number of different psychoactive chemicals which seriously affect internal dialogue. Some vastly increase it, some seem to eradicate it entirely.
I dance at psychedelic trance parties, and my internal dialogue disappears for short periods, unless I get distracted. I assume meditation achieves the same goal without the chemicals and music.
I find the lack of internal dialogue - not thinking, just being - incredibly refreshing and pleasant.
ETA: I am also a voracious reader, and that, too, distracts the internal dialogue.
I have an inner monologue at times, but I don’t think it’s always present. And I know I don’t really think in words, since (sadly often these days) I have the experience of forgetting the word for some common object. I know what I want to say, and I can think about the thing fine and describe it, but can’t name it.
It’s also often difficult to put my thoughts into words to explain to someone else, which kind of implies they weren’t in words to start with.
I do have to hear the words in my mind when I read, guessing pronunciations if necessary, or giving a name to symbols/foreign words in other alphabets if I don’t know the translation.
I have an inner monologue but I can think using nonverbal thought processes too.
I’m not sure what perplexes me more - the fact that some people can’t speak silently to themselves inside their brains, or that some people can’t conceive of thought processes that aren’t made of words.
Interesting discussion. I’m not sure the headline is correct though. I read another article on the topic which has Dr. Hurlburt estimating that people only have an inner monologue about 20 to 25 percent of the time on average but that having no monologue at all is rare.
Pressed to estimate how often people are hearing an inner voice, Hurlburt emphasised that much more research is needed on the subject.
But a ballpark figure could be that people are “inner speaking” 20 to 25 percent of the time, he said.
That average includes people who have far more frequent speech and those with none, such as May.
“Her inner experience is close to being nothing but she’s the exception rather than the rule,” Hurlburt said.
That makes me think… To me, listening to someone speak, speaking, writing, and reading are basically four sides of the same coin to me. But I know people who can read well but struggle with writing, or vice versa.
To them, they’re fundamentally different operations, while to me, it’s all basically the same thing, if that makes sense.
I wonder if internal monologue orientation has anything to do with it?
I find this thread fascinating. As someone with a constant inner monologue, I can’t imagine someone with no inner voice at all. Someone whose inner voice shuts up at times is hard to fathom.
For those who don’t know what it’s like, I’ll give you some examples.
Waking up in the morning, as I come alert, my brain starts immediately. It’s typically a conversation.
*Sigh. Time to get up. I don’t wanna get up. Too bad, you have to get up. NO! Yes, you have to go to work. *
It proceeds. If I’m not having a conversation, I’m itemizing the steps I’m going to take.
*1. Grab some underwear and pants. 2. Walk to the bathroom. 3. Get undressed. 4. Sit and do your business. *
Etc.
If I’m not doing that, I’m trying to remember the dream I just had by describing it. Or reviewing what I last read. Or talking about the pap of the movie I watched the night before.
If I’m listening to music I know, I’m singing along in my head. If there are no lyrics, I’m singing the instruments. How you might emulate the instrument sounds with your voice, but in my head.
If it’s music I don’t know, I’m trying to process the sounds as an echo in my head.
Yes, when I lie down or otherwise get still, I’m telling myself stories in my head. I’m having the conversations and describing events as a “feel” and “see” them in my head. I often revisit scenes and retell them, inevitably a bit differently each time. Because it’s not merely remembering, it’s recreating which is rethinking the experience.
Why I’ve tried quiet meditation, I concentrate on my breathing. My mind is either counting beats for the in/out cycle, or repeating the sounds of my breathing.
It just won’t shut up. There’s never silence in my mind. Maybe I start analyzing my tinnitus, or thinking over the days events, or reflecting on past incidents, typically mistakes I should have been able to put away long ago.
I can barely imagine silence. Like when I go into a deep sleep and then wake up later completely lost as to when and where I am.
Yeah - I’m wondering how much of it is an “either/or” thing. I tend to be VERY verbally oriented, including in my thoughts. The kinda thing that is always going on in my head is pretty much whenever I hear anything I’m thinking, “Where did I hear that before? Is that phrased correctly? Would there be a better word choice? Is there a pun to be made?” So I was intending to say, “Of course I operate from an inner verbal monologue.”
But given this thread, I’m not sure accurately I could even explain HOW I am thinking - say - when I’m musing before falling asleep. The very action of attempting to “put it into words” seems to necessarily (at least partially) corrupt it into a verbal dialogue.
Let’s say I’m daydreaming about if I had lived in a different time/location. I’m not experiencing it as tho I were dictating a book to myself. Instead, I assume it is some combination of mental images, directed by verbal prompts. SImilarly - dreams. They seem to be a mix of images and dialogue/narration.
Re: Mops’ description of looking for his knife. I likely go through a similar process. And I likely never say to myself, “The word is spelled K-N-I-F-E.” But I’m not at all sure I can accurately guarantee what is in my mind when I feel in my pocket for my knife. It doesn’t seem like it is the word, but nor does it seem to solely be an image. Pretty much as soon as the image of my knife pops into my head, not to mention a feeling of wondering whether I know where it is, some thought which is damned close to the question, “Where is my knife” is in my brain as well.
Last fall I met a guy who did not form mental images. VERY interesting conversation.
Could be worse.
You could find yourself composing Dope posts.
Like me. Ouch. Sux to be me.
Mental images are weird. I definitely can picture things in my head but I don’t know exactly how it is that I ‘see’ them. It’s like they are projected on a screen that I’m somehow aware of, but can’t directly see